women, god and religion

by teejay 34 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  My m-i-l is the good kind of Christian that tries to be a good person without spouting off religious slogans every chance she gets. She wears her Christianity quietly and for that I respect her a great deal. As a result, we have a very good relationship. Conversations between us are usually honest, open and spirited. One of the last convos we had was what sorta inspired this thread.

  Since she became a widow about four years ago, there has been no steady stream of men in her life. Although one *has* apparently caught her attention, she is quick to say that he has his problems. One in particular. That he doesn't understand what his role is. That he needs to get a grip and face reality, the reality being that he should show more interest in figuring her out and providing for her needs.

  Not long ago, in helping her move some stuff, I got a chance to meet and spend a bit of time with George. Since we spent time alone on the highway, our conversation was very similar in honestly and openness as the ones I have with my m-i-l. I found out that he is also a Christian, though not interested in holding any official capacity at his church were he regularly attends. He is also a devoted son to his elderly mother. More than anything, I found out why my m-i-l has "problems" with him.

  [George has been married twice before. The first marriage was a good one, but she died of illness. A few years later he married a second time and by his description, the woman was egomaniacal, jealous, insecure and immature. The marriage did not last. Because of it, George has soured on the idea of marriage and is quite comfortable with his singleness. He didn't need to explain it to me.]

  So, in talking with her not long ago about her bumpy, on again / off again relationship with "stubborn, selfish George," I asked her if she believed what Genesis says about creation. "Of course." In discussing the Creation narrative, I mentioned that generally speaking, the current state of the male / female relationship seemed to be a little off kilter. Most often, books, talk shows, magazine articles, ect. that deal with the subject usually emphasize the idea that it's men that are most often at fault. The doctors, sociologists, psychiatrists and other pundits nearly always put forth the notion that it's men who should get to know their female counterparts and work to fulfill *her* needs. This is my mil's position.

  I simply pointed out that, based on the Genesis account, she (and today's society in general) had it backwards. If the bible is true and a woman believes it, it seems to me that if she is interested in fulfilling her god-assigned role, she should be attempting to figure out *his* needs and working to fill them, not the other way around.

  Either way, it's not a big deal to me. I only mentioned the idea to my m-i-l (and here) as a topic of discussion... and to see her squirm a bit! Btw, I have enjoyed the comments made so far to this topic. Some of the comments about NOW I have long shared. Others I had never thought of before.
• 

  4skins

  Hi heaven,

  I guess what you're saying is that you want Wee Willy Clinton to give you a dental examination with his one-eyed trouser snake in much the same way he did for Monica?

  And thank you--you don't know how much the neanderthal resembles me, but you'll just have to be content to fantasize about me.
• 

  BeautifulGarbage

  It's threads like these that make me glad that I don't believe the bible is "inspired".

  Andee
• 

  Francois

  Heaven,

  I really don't think I had that coming from you. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out exactly what word or phrase is contained in my post to cause you to be so sarcastic in my direction? I'd sincerely like to know.

  Understand that for four years, I was a member of the board of directors of the Children's Rights Council of Georgia. I saw an awful lot of heartbreaking situations. I also saw more injustice done in the name of the "best interests of the children" than I ever dreamed existed.

  For example, Georgia's domestic laws are among the most backward, draconian, punitive, father-bashing laws in the country. Only Mississippi is worse, and perhaps South Carolina. Each time our organization, working with mainly Republican representatives and senators, helped in the attempt to bring Georgia's domestic laws up to something that resembled bare moral and ethical standards, we ran into the same roadblocks.

  The main roadblock was in the person of state representative Mary Margaret Oliver, who was responsible for the state of our domestic laws in the first place. All bills having anything to do with domestic law were sent to her special house subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. The bills went in, but they never came out. Ms. Oliver was a big NOW member.

  The second roadblock was that at each and every hearing of the special Judy committee, the National Organization of Women would be represented by at least a dozen members who did their best to take up as much of the committee time that was set aside for public comment as possible, thus denying a voice to those of us who favored change. They worked in collusion with Ms. Oliver to that end. Individuals wishing to speak at these hearings were to be limited to 10 minutes each. NOW members were allowed to speak, evidently, as long as they wished by the chairman, Ms. Oliver. It was not uncommon for NOW members to speak for fifteen to twenty minutes. However when I or other members of our group, or members from another group in favor of change, got up to speak not only were we allowed less than the approved ten minutes, we also had to endure the heckling by NOW, allowed by Ms. Oliver. I wonder if you've ever personally been party to such a cynical injustice.

  Keep in mind that these NOW lobbists spent the entire legislative session in the capitol building speaking for or against various issues. So here come the NOW members, fresh from demanding an end to the glass ceiling and demanding equal pay for equal work and demanding this and demanding that and as soon as they entered the hearing room of Special Judy, they demanded the continuance of the laws that enabled the rankest of injustices to be perpetrated against men and in favor of women every day.

  And in a final irony, I discovered - via having support and assistance for an article I was writing about child support enforcement efforts in Georgia from DFCS personnel - a fact that appeared in the story I was writing and has never again seen the light of day.

  In Georgia at that time there were approximately 30,000 non-custodial mothers. These mothers had all been ordered to pay child support to their ex-spouses of course. The rate of failure of these non-custodial mothers to abide by the child support orders of the court was 20% worse than compliance by non-custodial fathers. And rarely do we hear about "dead beat parents," but we frequently hear about "dead beat dads." This is more than an injustice in my opinion, it is immoral, unethical, and disgusting.

  Now, Heaven, perhaps you will be good enough to tell me just what it was about my original post you found so disturbing?

  Many Thanks,
  -francois

  Edited by - Francois on 27 July 2002 19:14:2
• 

  abomination

  Im with you francois, the only rights a man has left are the right to work his butt out, and the right to genuflect to all the "oppressed" , whether children, women,or the racially "oppressed".
• 

  SYN

  This just highlights the reason why I can never understand a woman wanting to be a Christian. Probably the reason there are so many female Christians is the fact that 90% of them have never read their Bible from cover to cover twice in a short period of time and really thought about the things it says.

  Besides, Christian women shouldn't complain if their man cheats, because lots of the great figures in the Bible were, like, SUPER POLYGAMOUS, dude.
• 

  Solace

  Francois, That is wonderful how involved you were with childrens rights. It just sounded to me like you did some generalizing and seemed quite negative on topics such as equality, same sex adoption, homosexuality and catagorized them with people who are "Just plain confused". My father never paid a dime of child support so I understand what you are saying. I dont think its right for a mother or father to abandon their responsibilities as a parent. I believe everyone should be treated as an individual. I would never say it is right for a woman to get away with something she is rightfully guilty of. I just dont believe all women should be judged based on "some" womens actions.

  4skins, Ewwww, No way! Only in Bills wildest dreams!! You crack me up. I think you are going to be fun to have around. You arent my fantasy but your username does make me wonder about you.
• 

  jgnat

  SYN, come, now. Let's not blame hundreds of years of oppression of women on the bible. Bigots have USED it, yes, to justify their cause; White Supremacists WTS and slave traders included. But bigots will use ANYTHING, no matter how poorly researched, to back their cause. Considering the times these stories were written, there are plenty of model women to chose from.

  • Deborah the Judge
  • Rahab the Harlot
  • Ruth
  • Esther
  • The Shunnamite Woman
  • One of my favorites is "a certain woman", probably an early feminist, in Judges 9:53.

  Jdg 9:53 And a certain woman cast an upper millstone upon Abimelech's head, and brake his skull.

  In the new testament, the Samaritan Woman, Mary and Martha come to mind, though this is not an exclusive list. And God has always had a tender spot for widows and orphans. Do you believe also, that 90% of Christian men have not read the bible from cover to cover in a short period of time and really thought about what it says? Otherwise, I will ask you to justify this sexist remark.
• 

  4skins

  Hi Heaven,

  Wonder no more! 4skins is a play on words. When friends tell me I have the intelligence of an impassioned penis I give them a 'tip' not to invalidate me again.
• 

  Earnest

  Spot on, TJ. You will be missed if you choose to go. You first welcomed me when I arrived here and have consistently provided food for thought without feeling the need to bash anyone in doing so.

  Earnest