"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  flipper

  This reminds me in a smaller way of my elder dad always making excuses for the unjust decisions elders make through the years and telling me after I left the JW cult, " Well Flipper, in time Jehovah will take care of those elders who hurt you , they are imperfect and made mistakes - he will judge them as unfit and will destroy them at Armageddon. " And I would tell my dad, " No He won't. Elders will keep doing this to people as they will never answer for their crimes so they don't deserve forgiveness. "

  To me it compares with religionists saying about this white supremacist murderer, " Well, we need to forgive him as he was mentally unfit and it's important to stay positive instead of resentful. " And I'm like WTF ? It's NOT more important to stay positive about a person who assassinated 9 people and ripped their families, friends, and children's lives apart. In fact- it's insanity to forgive someone like that who deserves to be killed himself for what he did. To show forgiveness to a piece of crap human like that is showing disrespect for the dead people he killed.

  The same way that " forgiving " or overlooking WT Society injustices and elders injustices is not a good thing either. Until our society starts changing it's prejudiced attitudes that are passed on from one generation to the next within families either in Southern States or anywhere else- more hate crimes like this will occur. It's NOT something that religionists will fix by just saying they " forgive " some wacked out murderer. It's not something that will just " go away " or not happen again. Ridiculous, the problems are much deeper , more systemic than that. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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  flipper

  BALLISTIC- Your view, " part of it is to realize that WE ARE ALL USELESS SINNERS and capable of MANY HORRENDOUS THINGS under certain circumstances. "

  Speak for yourself. I am NOT a " useless sinner " . I am NOT " capable of MANY HORRENDOUS THINGS under certain circumstances. "

  You are insinuating that most humans are bad or have ill motives or subscribe to the " original sin " theory of Adam and Eve. I think that view is bullshit. And I'll prove it to you.

  When babies are born into the world and you get small children together- most times these children are VERY accepting towards any race, color, or creed of people without prejudices. It's not until the ADULTS in these children's various family chains start teaching children their own prejudiced views that children start forming prejudiced views. Before they are influenced by the adults - children couldn't care less if a person is yellow, purple, red, black , or green.

  It is NOT inherited sin that is within these adults generation after generation spanning hundreds of years in which they teach their children to have the same warped prejudiced views that they have- it is warped , twisted, unjust minds based on prejudiced views of their ancestors and forefathers handed down to them that keeps the flames of racial prejudice alive causing nutcases to go berserk like this guy did in South Carolina. When he was born he probably didn't have ANY views formed yet- not until he started reading and being influenced by those around him. So don't give me that born-in " useless " sin and imperfection crap. It's just an excuse religionists use to excuse bad behavior and not take responsibility for wrongs committed.

  The only thing that will change prejudiced attitudes is that people individually start making a positive difference in their homes teaching children acceptance, make a difference in their communities speaking positively about racial equality and show it by positive actions. To make excuses for insane murderers is insanity in itself
• 

  cofty

  I have been out at work all day and just got home and caught up on some interesting posts. I am out at a meeting this evening - football - and will reply later.

  You don't stay on point, address my questions or offer an alternate view - bafh

  This is totally disingenuous. You could only say such a thing if you had not bothered to read my many detailed explanations of my point earlier in the thread. I welcome opposing views but at least try to take account of what has already been said. If you can't be bothered to read it why bother posting?

  Yes, I have a Christian view, - bafh

  No you don't.

  To say that a christian - or anybody - should be expected to forgive somebody who is unwilling to repent and change is to contradict the words of Jesus.

  "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Luke 17:3,4
  

  I have much more I want to comment later. Thanks.

  
  
  
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  ballistic

  Flipper you seeing a very different angle to what I'm saying and "flippered" it over. I'm talking about the inherent weakness and mankind's mind and things it can be pushed to do. About what you said, the kids who grow up with no inhibitions or prejudices etc are programmed to do that because a better evolutionary strategy is actually to get along with your fellow man in cooperation. Accepting the weaknesses of the human mind I see as the opposite to self-righteousness and hypocracy. Anyway, you thought I was bible bashing or calling everyone racist WTF?
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  cofty

  I think this was the bit that earned you some dislikes...

  "we are all useless sinners".

  That is the fundamental lie that christianity is built on. It is this that makes it worthy of opposition.
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  bafh

  Crofty, I did read the thread. You didn't ever address my direct question: What right do you have to judge?

  I feel sorry for you and the others on this thread who express such rigid and bitter points of view.
• 

  flipper

  BALLISTIC- Mankind does NOT have " inherent weaknesses " unless you believe the fictitious " Adam & Eve " stories . I did not say that you are calling everyone a " racist ". What I am saying is religions in general trying to " accept " the weaknesses of the human mind- then turn around and make excuses or justify crazy, murderous actions of psycho's like we just saw in South Carolina. It's like, " oh well, it's just sin and imperfection that caused him to do it. " That is SO JW thinking which is too simplistic and puts a bandaid on the reasons- but does not explain it fully as to the REAL reasons psychos do things like this. It's a patronizing copout to give religionists PRETEND reasons for mass murders. When in actuality it's the environment the young man was raised in, it's the information he glutted his brain with, and the company of people he connected minds with on the Internet
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  smiddy

  People who Identify themselves as Christians , Bible believers , feel they are compelled to forgive any crime , sin , injustice , that is done to them in the name of Jesus.

  It does not seem to matter to these Christians how vile , evil , and without remorse, no pangs of conscience , these creatures can be in their horrific crimes , "we forgive them".

  Many only become remorseful , and apologetic when they know they will have to pay the ultimate price for their vile deeds .maybe after a period on death row.

  They have a warped sense of justice and forgiveness .

  The Old Testament , (Hebrew Scriptures) and the New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures ) have completely opposing views on forgiveness and justice .

  The old testament ," An eye for an eye " and the new testament ," Turn the other cheek "

  Funny that , the Bible is supposed to be inspired by the same God , who never changes .

  smiddy
• 

  cofty

  You didn't ever address my direct question: What right do you have to judge? - bafh

  I assumed it was a rhetorical question.

  We all have the right. It is a perfectly reasonable point.

  1 - Christians think it is a virtue to instantly forgive even the most heinous crimes. This is in contrast to Jesus' own words who told his disciples "if he repents, forgive him,"

  2 - I am trying to investigate what modern christians actually mean by forgiveness, since the state can be relied on to punish the murderer to the full extent of the law.

  Forgiveness seems to have been reduced to nothing more than choosing not to be consumed by hatred.

  I feel sorry for you and the others on this thread who express such rigid and bitter points of view. - bafh

  There you go again with the personal attacks. Who exactly do you think I am bitter about? I am trying to have a calm and rational conversation about forgiveness.

  Let's go back to the example of a parent.

  If a child does something seriously wrong and the parent instantly says "it's ok I forgive you", and then goes on to punish the child isn't that hypocrisy? Notice I'm not talking about the natural consequences of his or her actions, I mean actively punishing them. Perhaps this will help clarify what I am getting at.

  See if you can reply without personal attacks or insults.
• 

  bafh

  No. I don't think a parent saying, "I forgive you" and then punishing a child is a hypocrite. The punishment is the consequence. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequence. Parents are well within their right to teach children that their actions have consequences.

  If you are trying to take the Christian view - there are plenty of verses that speak about not judging. Here are a few reminders:

  Luke 6:37
  "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
  
  Luke 6:41
  "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
  
  John 8:7
  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
  
  Romans 2:1
  You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
  
  Romans 14:10
  You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
  
  Romans 14:13
  Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
  
  1 Corinthians 4:5
  Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
  
  James 4:11
  Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

  
  

  Forgiveness seems to have been reduced to nothing more than choosing not to be consumed by hatred.

  I agree with this point of view. I do not think there is anything wrong with that. As I've been saying consequences are not tied to forgiveness. It is something I do for myself, not for the one who has wronged me. I can completely forgive someone, and still agree with or want consequences or punishment for that person. They are not one and the same.