"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ... (page 9)

pomegranate

Show us all how it's done oh chosen one.

NeonMadman

I have. Repeatedly. It hasn't helped. You still quote scripture out of context, quote half verses, and try to apply scriptures to things they are in no way talking about.

pomegranate

What do you do to become chosen and saved by God?

pomegranate

Teach me oh chosen and saved one. Enlighten me with your vast wisdom and expertise in God's word...

Many scriptures that will teach you what is needed to be saved are cited in this very thread. You have pooh-poohed them all, and advanced your own twisted arguments with misapplied scripture and out-of context quotations. I'm not going to go over all that ground again so you can respond with your foolish arguments and scripture citations with your own ideas inserted in brackets again.

If you truly want to know how to be saved, read over this thread and note the scriptures I and others have cited on the subject. Look them up in your Bible. Read them in context. The answers are there. Whether or not you choose to see them is your own decision.

NeonMadman

Enlighten me with your vast wisdom and expertise in God's word...

And by the way, I make no claim to "expertise". It takes no expertise, when someone cites a scripture and says it means such-and-such, to look up the scripture and read the context to see whether that is really what it is talking about. You don't have to be a scholar to do that, you just have to be honest in using God's Word.

pomegranate

Surely you have claimed your expertise. If you know you are right and that I am wrong, you have exercised your expertise by raising yourself up and putting me down. I stand by my beliefs as I understand them from the Bible. I neither force anyone to believe them, nor do I condemn anyone else's beliefs. You are both forcing me to believe what you believe by your condemnation, and condemn my beliefs of which I rest MY FAITH ON.

In Christ, you can surely disagree with me. But, it will be Christ to justify each and every man or not.

As far as who is "twisted", you make the judgment that it is I. You are the one that will have to live by that judgment. I neither judge you, nor myself. By your claiming saved staus ALREADY, you have judged yourself already righteous. You judge me and you judge yourself. You also will answer for that judgment.

I will not judge my own saved status, I will wait for Christ to do that.

I like to look at two men in the Bible when viewing my OWN status in relation to God:

Luke 18:9-14

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
(from New International Version)

I claim verse 13 as my own. You?

I'd like to close with one more out of context scripture if I may:

1 Cor 8:2,3
2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.

edited for PS

PS. You can have the last word.

Edited by - pomegranate on 3 September 2002 17:14:0

borgfree

pomegranate,

I do not remember if these scriptures have been quoted earlier in this thread or not, but, I will quote them here in a effort to show you that the bible says we can KNOW we have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Borgfree

sunstarr

Surely you have claimed your expertise. If you know you are right and that I am wrong, you have exercised your expertise by raising yourself up and putting me down.

Knowing that 2 + 2 = 4 instead of 7 does not make one an expert in Mathematics. Correcting someone who claims that 2 + 2 = 7 does not make one an expert in Mathematics. It's simple logic. That's all.

NeonMadman

Surely you have claimed your expertise. If you know you are right and that I am wrong, you have exercised your expertise by raising yourself up and putting me down. I stand by my beliefs as I understand them from the Bible. I neither force anyone to believe them, nor do I condemn anyone else's beliefs. You are both forcing me to believe what you believe by your condemnation, and condemn my beliefs of which I rest MY FAITH ON.

Sorry, but I don't see how pointing out misapplied scriptures and out-of-context quotations constitutes "claiming expertise". Nor was the intent my personal exaltation. What you have to understand is that a lot of JW's and those recently out of the JW's lurk here and read what is posted. When someone blatantly misrepresents scripture - as by citing only half of Romans 8:24, and ignoring the fact that the other half of the verse contradicts the argument you are using it to support - I feel an obligation to point it out. I consider such misuse of scripture to be both dangerous and dishonest.

No one is questioning your right to believe whatever you want to. I do, however, question the appropriateness of claiming that your belief is biblical, when the very scriptures you are citing to support it in fact do not.

As far as who is "twisted", you make the judgment that it is I.

Actually, it was your arguments that I said were "twisted," not you personally.

By your claiming saved staus ALREADY, you have judged yourself already righteous.

By no means. I am not righteous; but Christ's righteousness is imparted to me as a free gift. If one cannot know this, why does the Bible say that we can know that we have everlasting life? Not "will have", not "might have", and not "maybe at the last day if you're chosen".

Frankly, we could argue doctrine until Christ returns. I am well aware that there are scriptural arguments both ways on doctrines such as predestination and the security of the believer. What got my knickers in a twist was not so much your position on these ideas as the fact that you were isung scripture dishonestly to support them.

I claim verse 13 as my own. You?

I would also claim verse 13 as my own. I'm nothing special, just a sinner like anyone else. But I claim the promises that Christ made that my sins are forgiven. You need to read verse 14, too. It says that the publican "went home justified before God". Because of his sincere repentance, his sins were forgiven. Yours can be, too, and you can know that they are.

I'd like to close with one more out of context scripture if I may:
1 Cor 8:2,3
2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.

If I read this scripture the way that you are asking me to, it would imply that we can't know anything at all, wouldn't it? If that's the case, why have the Bible at all? We should just wait until the end for Christ to reveal everything to us. But God provided the Bible because there are things He wants us to know before that time. Paul was not condemning all knowledge, nor was he contradicting 1 John 5:13 when he wrote the above. What he was doing was pointing out the superiority of love over knowledge; that our relationship with God is based on our love for Him, not on our ability to recite information.

Frankly, you lost my respect when you mishandled the word of God. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me about doctrine. I may argue the point with them, but I'll do so respectfully. But I will not be respectful when someone dishonestly misrepresents scripture; that is a grave sin, and I will oppose it vigorously. I'll leave you with Paul's words at 2 Timothy 2:15:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Edited by - NeonMadman on 3 September 2002 18:13:42

"Witnesses Now For Jesus" convention ...

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