Screw it.
Stupid Formating....grrrr....
Just go have a beer everyone.
Everyone needs a beer.
D8TA
Edited by - D8TA on 7 September 2002 20:9:35
Last thought on Iraq
by freedom96 41 Replies latest jw friends
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searchfothetruth
I agree with Bigboi.
I am not calling the American people, only the leadership who are determined to try and control as much of the world as they can.
Don't forget the same people are behind this war as were behind the original gulf war Cheney, powell and bush's son.
The Bush's have massive interests in oil companies along with Dick Cheney and it goes against all principles of government to allow a president to make decisions which will affect his bank balance.
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animal
In a sense, it is our fault... we put these people into office then dont take them to task. I dont think there is personal bank accounts being filled by all this, but I do feel there may be a power grab going on. I also think that there is a level of frustration, with 9-11 coming up in a few days..... and the news media aint helping matters any.
My group of bikers follows much of whats happening, both for our good as riders, and our good as citizens. We feel there is no diff between the repubs and dems anymore, they are all crooked liars that only worry about thier cushy carreers. We would love to be part of changing that by making all of them unemployed.
Animal
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searchfothetruth
its the same in britain, but we dont live in a democracy. the people who are behind the governments run both sides so it doesn't matter who is in power.
people don't rebel if they think they are free and we think we are free because we have elections every 4 years!
America has become even less 'free' since 911 with the 'patriot act' which allows the government to arrest anyone they want to suspect and hold them in jail with no access to a lawyer. I would be worried. very worried.
I think this the acceleration of the new world order, one global government, currancy, world army ( nato/UN ) and all the other things that come with it.
There are other motives behind invading Iraq and we should be asking what they are before we let them lead us into another war.
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seawolf
To go with refiners fire image about needing a reason:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12148547&method=full&siteid=50143
THE Blair government was told in January by the Americans that there was no justification for attacking Iraq in the "war on terrorism" and that their main aim was getting rid of Saddam Hussein who stood in the way of the West's control of Middle Eastern oil wealth.
On July 23rd, the head of the UN weapons inspector program, and also the man that led the Iraqi weapons inspection program said this:
This partly explains why Blair abandoned presenting to Parliament a famous "dossier" in which "the evidence of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction is simply vast".
The dossier is no more than a stream of warmed-over assertions and deceptions, supplied by Washington. According to reliable intelligence sources in another Western country, who were privy to the same communications, the Central Intelligence Agency has made clear that there is "no credible evidence" justifying an attack in Iraq."There is no case for war. I say that, not as a pacifist, or someone who is afraid of war. I've been to war with the US Marine Corps. Moreover, I'm a card-carrying Republican, who voted for George W. Bush for president. More important, I believe in truth.
"The UN weapons inspectors enjoyed tremendous success in Iraq. By the end of our job, we ascertained a 90-95 per cent level of disarmament. Not because we took at face value what the Iraqis said. We went to Europe and scoured the countries that sold technology to Iraq until we found the company that had an invoice signed by an Iraqi official. We cross-checked every piece of equipment with serial numbers. That's why I can say that Iraq was 90-95 per cent disarmed. We confirmed that 96 per cent of Iraq's 98 missiles were destroyed.
"As for chemical weapons, even if Iraq had succeeded in hiding stocks of sarin and tabun nerve agents, these chemicals have a shelf life of five years; after that they deteriorate and become useless gunk."In terms of the UN inspectors being pulled out and Iraq's nuclear program:
Blair must also be aware of the fact that the international Atomic Energy Agency reported that it had eliminated Iraq's nuclear weapons programme "efficiently and effectively". When he and Bush "demand" the return of the UN inspectors to Iraq, what they they omit to say is that the inspectors were never thrown out by Iraq, but ordered out by the UN after it was discovered they were being used as a cover for American spying.
THE unmentionable truth is that the entire Gulf and Middle East is being turned upside down, not by any perceived threat from Iraq, but by American obsessions with replacing Saddam Hussein.
The other Arab countries don't seem to fear him anymore:
The second biggest lie is Iraq's "threat to the region". Blair and Bush repeatedly claim this as if they are echoing the fears of regional leaders. The opposite is true.
In March, the Beirut summit of the Arab League sent a clear message that all 22 governments wanted to see an end to the conflict with Iraq, which they no longer regarded as a threat. Saudi Arabia and Iraq have since re-opened their common border. Iraq has agreed to return Kuwait's national archives and to discuss the issue of missing people. Syria and Lebanon have re-established full relations with Iraq. Jordan's national airline flies five times a week between Amman and Baghdad."A lot of what is out there in American television is propoganda. The same thing with the Gulf War in 1991. I remember being really mad and upset about the stories about the Iraqis taking the babies out of the incubators and leaving them to die! Well, The American PR firm Hill and Knowlton was hired by the Kuwaiti government for $10.7 million to try and win American support for the war. That story about the Kuwaiti babies being taken out of the incubators and left to die was pushed by them. They've been hired again now I recall reading.
Too bad it never happened. The babies in the incubator story is a classic example of how easy it is for the public and legislators to be mislead during moments of high tension. It's also a vivid example of how the media can be manipulated if we do not keep our guards up.
from here: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html
What on tv is true and what isn't? Who knows.
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bigboi
There are other motives behind invading Iraq and we should be asking what they are before we let them lead us into another war.
I feel the same way Search.
It has a great deal to do with securing a route to the oil in the Caspian Sea reagion, imo.
We don't need Sadaam as a buffer against Iran anymore. If we occupy iraq we'll probably have enough troops in the area to deal with them if they get to rowdy anyway. With superior military presence in Afghanistan and a pro-USA Iraqi government we'll have indirect control over enough oil reserves in the Middle East that we probably won't need to kiss the Saudis' asses anymore. The USA would truly be the de-facto shot caller in the Middle East.
Edited by - bigboi on 7 September 2002 22:5:7
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expatbrit
Teejay:
As it is with a literal sword, though, that military power and commercial might has been shown to have a double edge, and it's that second edge--the one that shows America's backing of its friends (like Israel)--that troubles many of those who live under the rule of the "despots" you mention.
Yes I agree. Where Israel shows itself to be acting in the same despotic manner towards the Palestinians, I feel the US should take measures against them. Unlike Saddam Hussein though, they are unlikely to need military action to bring into line, nor do they exhibit an insane desire for conquest and an itchy trigger finger on weapons of mass destruction.
Blaming the West (and in particular the US) is a very convenient method used by third world dictators of distracting from their own tyranny and bad policies. Robert Mugabe has provided an excellent example of this during the past year. In the case of the Arab world, it is the policies of its autocratic rulers preventing education, stopping women's development and allowing religion to strangle freedom of thought that have caused the widespread poverty in that region. These rulers don't care of course. Their only desire is power, and increasing that power.
And yes, America isn't perfect. It too acts in its own self-interest. But that is no reason for sitting back and doing nothing while monsters like Hussein commit atrocities with weapons of mass destruction.
I am British. By geography I suppose I'm European, though I find that to be more and more distasteful as time passes. But I am sick of the pusillanimous whining of Europeans. America seems to be the only country left that has any guts, any desire to improve the condition of the world in general. Meanwhile the European Union (or more realistically the latest Franco-German attempt at European hegemony they call the European Union) sits back and carps and complains at American actions without providing any solutions themselves. Yet if America does nothing, they whine about "American isolationism" and how America is neglecting the rest of the world. Europe has become a continent of impotent squabblers. Even when the Balkans yet again erupted in slaughter a few years ago, it was America that provided the manpower and the drive to do something about it, while European politicians sat on their arses and criticised like old women.
My personal opinion is that America should damn well get on with it and ignore the whining coming from a part of the world that used to have the kernel of greatness, but threw it away and doesn't seem to want it back.
Expatbrit
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teejay
Expat,
Again, you make good points. The one about Mugabe? Excellent. In the same vein, I recall not long ago a news report that even friends of the U.S. like Egypt will, on the one hand denounce American Middle East policies but on the other, gladly accept financial aid from the U.S. because of it's (Egypt's) internal mismanagement and corruption.
It's a very tricky mess, no doubt. All I know is like someone's already said: you can't kill everybody that hates you and America continues to make bitter enemies who have little to live for. I'm not an America-basher but neither am I a blind loyalist. I don't hold America totally at fault -- not at all. At the same time, I think that America can't totally remove itself from the equation. America has Palestinian blood on *its* hands, too.
In interviews almost immediately following 9/11, Arab people from Egypt to Syria all said the same thing: America needs to look at itself and reconsider it's total support of Israel to the detriment of Palestinians. That was the simple, honest message of the Saudi prince who offered Guilliani $10 million late last year. "Take a look at yourself. Reconsider." World powers arrogantly have a hard time doing that, but before lots of innocent people are killed it might be worth doing.
And yes, America isn't perfect. It too acts in its own self-interest. But that is no reason for sitting back and doing nothing while monsters like Hussein commit atrocities with weapons of mass destruction.
To a point, I agree. True "monsters" should be stopped cold, even eliminated. The problem is accurately identifying one.Bush hopes for a second term. The problem is that lingering economic lethargy that he seemingly has no clue to solve threatens to rob him of re-election. Is he talking tough against Iraq in order to deflect attention from his inadequacy at home? I think he is. It's a crime if he uses the U.S. military for the sake of his own personal agenda. Wouldn't that make him a despot? After being asked repeatedly for what proof he has showing Hussein has such weapons, Bush has failed miserably. If he can't put up he needs to shut up.
The fallacy of the mugger mentioned in the first post points to the error (and potentially massive harm) of Bush's thinking and stated plans relative to Iraq. As the media friendly part of the Afghan War dies down, Bush needs another forum for talking and acting tough. So far, his provocative words, based on flimsy (non-existent) evidence, have fallen on the ears of skeptical world leaders. Hope the dialog continues.
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Yerusalyim
I am so utterly disgusted with the whole lot of you and your ignorance. I frigging lost friends on 9-11 and it wasn't their fault and it wasn't the fault of the US and it wasn't the Fault of our Leaders. It was the fault of a friggin mad man who wants to destroy not only the way of life of the US, but of the whole free world. You think he would stop with the US, shit no, Germany, England, France, Italy, they would all have to go because Bin Ladin's vision, and that of the Al Qaeda terrorists is life as it was in the Arabian Peninsula in AD 700.
He's not MAD at the US, he's jealous and wants to destroy what we are and what we have.
IRAQ is a friggin threat. You think Hussien would hesitate for a minute to Nuke Israel HELL NO! Nor would he hesitate to bomb New York Harbor. But the lot of you would have us wait...enforce the arms inspections that he's ignored and avoided for 11 years/ COME UP WITH A F**KING WORKABLE SOLUTION or don't stand in the way when we take the M.F. Out.
I'm tired of losing friends to terrorists and then putting up with the Self Righteous NONSENSE of a punch of wimps, punks, and pacifists crybabies!
