by sleepy 64 Replies latest jw friends
but at least some are not so blind
But then there's the expression "There's none so blind as those who will not see".
Remember that your opinion of what is "light" seen by you may not be so to others.
We're all legends in our own minds.
Cheers, Ozzie
I don't want to go on about it, but it just amazes me how people will go from following one group of men to another.
The governing body, jesus, the're all the same to me.Men.
I haven't been able to spend as much time on this board lately as I used to (due to taking two college courses this semester), and so I just stumbled upon this thread. Had I found it earlier, I would undoubtedly have jumped in, but most of the points I would have made have now been expressed by others.
There are, however, a few minor items I'd like to address:
JT says:
personally i have a difficult time trying to understand why a person after being part of a group that viewed others outside of them on the road to destruction, why would you now join another group that views folks outside of them AKA: Not born again/non-christian on the road to destruction as well.
You seem to be looking at the issue as a JW would ("But where would we go if we left God's organization?"). Being a Christian isn't about joining groups or belonging to an organization. It's about having a personal relationship with Jesus, who IS "the way, the truth and the life". (John 14:6) It isn't a question of where we could go (i.e., what other organization), but to whom - and the answer is to Jesus. Belonging to a church can be a wonderful, encouraging thing, and can really help us to grow as Christians. But if you are in a church that starts preaching that you have to belong to their group in order to be saved, run for the hills!
sleepy says:
Sorry BA's you're just as mislead as JW's.Fancy following the words of men you've never met and who died thousands of years ago with no proof of their truthfulness, and leading your life by it.Thats no different from following men in Brooklyn.
Are you saying that you don't follow the words of any men? That every thought and action you experience is completely of your own origination? Are there no writings of humans that you consider to be reliable guides for life? If you are a non-believer, have you not been influenced by the writings of other skeptics? Many Christians have examined the Bible in depth, and consider it reliable. Is their opinion any less valid than yours?
Being a Christian is entirely different than being a JW. And the difference is freedom. I don't have to interpret the Bible a certain way because some authority structure dictates the meaning. I am free to use my own conscience in making decisions about my life. I can read what I want, think what I want, and do what I want. When I refrain from sinful conduct, it is because I choose to do so out of love for the Lord, not because the 'spiritual policemen' will cause my friends and family to shun me.
Are there Christian churches that engage in cultlike behavior, claiming exclusivity, demanding obedience and enforcing discipline on members? Sure. My advice? Stay away from that sort of church. Christian fellowship should be a positive experience, and if it isn't, you're fellowshipping with the wrong group of people. Find another group to hang out with. But don't blame the Bible for the situation, because that sort of behavior isn't what the Bible teaches.
sleepy further says:
I don't want to go on about it, but it just amazes me how people will go from following one group of men to another.
The governing body, jesus, the're all the same to me.Men.
Waht about presidents and other political leaders? What about college professors? Businessmen? Supervisors at work? What about philosophers? Scientists? Economists? Doctors and dentists? TV news commentators? They are all men, aren't they?
But if none of these people affect your life or in any way control your actions, you must be the most independent person who ever drew breath. And yet, you sound a great deal like all the other atheists and agnostics who post here, many of whom seem to feel the need to jump into every Bible-related thread and assure us that the Bible is merely the work of men. It amazes me that such a group of enlightened free thinkers feels the need to act in virtual lockstep whenever the subject of religion arises.
And, I hasten to add, Christians believe that Jesus is much more than a man, thus he is infinitely more worthy of our devotion.
NeonMadman What I should have said is that Jesus has no bigger claim of being Gods represenative than any other group of men, that we know so much more about the men of the governing body and so much less about Jesus that just excepting his is what is cliamed seams foolish.
DJ
thanks for your honesty- it is indeed a subject that is difficult to answer many times
as humans we don't have all the answers
the comment was made:
You seem to be looking at the issue as a JW would ("But where would we go if we left God's organization?"). Being a Christian isn't about joining groups or belonging to an organization
######
Well you are joining another group - you are joining another group much like wt call it BA or whatever you like, but this group of persons that you refer to as bro and sister - sincerely believe that if you are not with them then your fate is a burning hell fire-
now correct me if i'm wrong is the buring hell fire dogma a part of your version of being BA-
as i mentioned in my exp the hell fire dogma is indeed one of the beliefs of BA-
Do you feel that the views held by BA about Hell are wrong?
I have no problem with the fact that BA want to believe if you are not with them then your fate is Hell,
that is your right esp if you are an american citizen to believe whatever you chose.
my only question is do you believe that if I don't accept your brand of belief system then hell is my fate.
I fully understand the position that it puts you and other BA persons in to come out with a straight answer and that is my point -- I want you to hear how you actually sound
"Hey James look if you don't believe as i do - the bottom line is James hell is a waiting for your soul"
so i ask you again do you believe that portion of the tenets of the BA group that you belong to or do you have your own version of what happens to those who don;t accept your Belief System?
I thank you in advance
James
I believe that the hell-fire approach to the desciption of Hell is an attempt to communicate to humanity the utter horror of LIFE WITHOUT GOD.
Now, I don't mean life 'without God' as we would experience it on this earth, wherein God daily bestows a goodly measure of common blessing (i.e. God causes the sun to rise for and sends the rain upon the just AND the unjust). I speak of a life that is completely devoid of God and His blessings. It is a life only to be realized when we leave this sphere and upon holding to our decision to be apart from God, He grants our desire by REMOVING us from His presence ... AND the context of His blessing (whether direnct or indirect). No light, ... no warmth ... no love, ... no joy, ... no hope, ... no peace, ... no family, ... no LIFE.
I actually believe that in the same way that ...
God gives each man and woman a choice ... that of GOOD or EVIL, ...
... GOOD being defined as ... that which is according to the will of God.
... while EVIL is defined as ... that which falls outside of the will of God.
I believe that much of our physical existence is to ready us to make this ultimate choice (i.e. how will we ultimately align ourselves) ... WITH GOD ... or ... WITHOUT GOD.
I believe that the Bible is clear that God allows each man and woman to make this decision ... and that God ultimately accords to each man and woman THEIR CHOICE ... that of being WITH HIM ... or WITHOUT HIM.
It should be evident that to be ... WITH GOD ... accords, to those who so choose this position, ... a particular type of life
... a life of submission, obedience, fellowship, service, relationship, etc. ... WITH GOD
... along with those blessings which are, UNIQUELY, God's to give to those that are ... WITH HIM
... (i.e. light, love, joy, peace, goodness, warmth, provision, protection, guidance, healing, restoration, family, etc.)
It should also be evident that to be ... WITHOUT GOD ... accords, to those who so choose this position, ... a particular type of life
... a life of indepedence (from God), self-will, personal indulgence, discord, destruction, etc. ... i.e. LIFE WITHOUT GOD
... BUT additionally, WITHOUT those blessings which are, UNIQUELY, God's to give to those that are ... WITH HIM
... (i.e. light, love, joy, peace, goodness, warmth, provision, protection, guidance, healing, restoration, family, etc.)
Such a life would be one of (pain, darkness, despair, loneliness, want, confusion, vulnerability, exposure, etc.)
Such a life (for those who were created to be WITH GOD) might indeed be HELL.
Edited by - JustAThought on 16 September 2002 17:47:52
Well you are joining another group - you are joining another group much like wt call it BA or whatever you like, but this group of persons that you refer to as bro and sister - sincerely believe that if you are not with them then your fate is a burning hell fire-
No, it really isn't a question of joining a group. Not at all. A person left alone on a desert island with a Bible could, I believe, read the Bible, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and be saved. A person who is not on a desert island could be saved in the same way without ever going to a church or joining a group or organization of any sort. That person will grow more in a spiritual way if he seeks out other believers to associate with for mutual encouragement, but will be saved even if he does not, as long as his acceptance of Jesus and willingness to obey is genuine.
my only question is do you believe that if I don't accept your brand of belief system then hell is my fate.
Not sure on that one. Depends, I guess, on how you define "hell". If what you mean by hell is eternal separation from God, then yes, I'd say that the Bible is clear that only those who have a personal relationship with Jesus will spend eternity with God. What form the separation will take for those who do not accept Jesus, I wouldn't begin to venture. I have probably as big a problem as you do with the concept of sulphur and brimstone and eternal flames (at least if taken literally), so I'm inclined to assign them a figurative meaning. Someday, I'll study the matter deeply enough to draw some conclusions, but I haven't done that yet.
But let me disabuse you of the notion that seems to be floating around this thread - not all born-again Christians believe in a literal fiery hell of torment. There are many who would assign a figurative meaning to the verses that talk about fire. One elder in the Baptist church I used to attend believed much as do the JW's - that the fire represented annihilation. Unlike JW's, there is a great diversity of belief among born-again Christians on many topics. The one thing we all agree on is that Jesus - personally, not through some organization - is the only means of salvation.
Thank you, NeonMadman and DJ. I couldn't have said it better.
As fall as "hell" is concerned, don't know; can't and won't judge.
Foxy
Are Born Agains qualified to help JW's? I have a lot of difficulty with the way this question is worded. For one thing, it is not a multiple-choice answer. It sounds like the typical JW black-and-white mindset.
i.e. Are Christendom's churches Chosen by Jehovah, or part of Babylon the Great, Satan's lying horde?
During my short time on the board, I find that xJW's come in all shapes and sizes. Some leave with a bang, others fade. Some chat, others listen. Some reevaluate their faith and become stronger in their beliefs as a result, others reevaluate and reject their faith altogether. Many are still searching, each in their own unique way. I find this far more genuine than what can be seen at the typical Kingdom Hall. It is unlikely that God created us all to be uniformly alike.
In the same way, I believe those who claim to be "Born Again" come in many shapes and sizes. i.e. Joe Jerk finds God. Next week, he is pushing a bible in the face of his family and friends instead of a beer. I used to puzzle over this for years. Now I figure, God needs to do more renovation work on some. Over time, Joe figures out that some of those bible verses also apply to his behavior.
As a Christian, can I help everyone who comes to the board? Probably not. Can I provide empathy and support to some? I do hope so.
