Are Born Agains qualified to help JW's?

by sleepy 64 Replies latest jw friends

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  DJ

  Hi jnat,

  We've spoken before. I hope you're doing well! I am glad that you have never been a JW. That is a real blessing. Although I think that that is the reason why you don't understand the mentality here. XJW's learn the hard way that only XJW's understand them. Many, many loving Christians who were not JW's before, have tried to help me. I love them for that! Unfortunately, noone on this earth replaces the understanding that comes from a Christian who once was a JW. Take care and I hope all is well w/ the BF. dj
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  JT

  But let me disabuse you of the notion that seems to be floating around this thread - not all born-again Christians believe in a literal fiery hell of torment. There are many who would assign a figurative meaning to the verses that talk about fire.

  ########

  You have actually made my point, such a dogma as Hell - should be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY ALL WHO CLAIM TO BE BA

  Why is it something such as this dogma "WHAT IS HELL" which is suppose to have such grave ramifications on a persons life so misunderstood-

  even you concede that have of you got one idea of it and the other half HAVE ANOTHER.

  some say it is the absence of god, sorta like not being able to go to someones party.

  while others say - you will be roasted like a marshmallow- I found this comment to be most interesting:

  I believe that the hell-fire approach to the description of Hell is an attempt to communicate to humanity the utter horror of LIFE WITHOUT GOD.

  TRANSLATION FEAR

  To refer to a dogma that HAS major impact on a PERSONS life as the hell-fire approach

  Why would a god of love use such a tactic?

  These are just they types of quandaries that a believer is left with

  Allow me to illustrate- I have asked the question:

  Is my fate a fire filled roasting oven, if I dont accept your belief system

  and I have observed 2 completely different answers

  in my view going to hell and burning is a serious then and for those who advocate this dogma not to know FOR SURE WHAT IT IS - in my view is so telling-

  imagine I had asked a BA- Is sleeping with someones elses wife what constitutes adultery

  I am confident that for the most part they would be in agreement that it is, yet something like Hell they are not-

  how sad that the god of the bible leaves his believers not evening knowing what such a thing is.

  As I have said many times before I have read MCSE books that are easier and clearer than the bible, and it doesnt cost one their life if they dont agree with it.

  But I do thank all of you for your honest answers, while I dont agree with them at least we are free to express them
• 

  jgnat

  DJ, I sense some elitism here. You do not know enough about me to judge me "unhelpful" to XJW's.

  Let me tell you a story. And this happened before I knew as much about the society that I do now. In High School, two girls decided not to participate in a school-sponsored native sweetgrass ceremony. One girl was my daughter, the other a girl (Jane, here) converting to the WTS. They got to talking. My daughter was flabbergasted at some of the beliefs Jane had, and took it upon herself to bring her around. With some help of her Youth Pastor, she researched the history of the WTS and some key scriptures. She highlighted. She typed out notes. She prepared.

  I suggested that argument was unlikely to bring Jane around. Someone you can argue out of a point of view, can be just as easily argued in to a different one. I told my girl to show Jane lots of love. There is no defence or argument against love. A genuine friendship developed between the two girls, and eventually, my daughter invited Jane out to a Youth Group meeting. That first meeting was an eye-opener for Jane, as there was funky music, fun, laughter, and genuine acceptance. My daughter was a little put out, because Jane quickly latched on to HER friends. Within a few months, Jane had stopped studying with the WTS and joined my daughter's youth group.

  I and my daughter knew virtually nothing about the WTS. Yet we helped. I know injustice when it is staring me in the face. I am good at fighting injustice.
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  DJ

  Hi again jgnat,

  I'm sorry that you sensed elitism. It is not that I feel you are unhelpful! The last thing that I have is elitism about being a jw! It's more like regrets. Anyway, I liked the story about your daughter..good 4 her!!! I hope that Jane realizes what a wonderful friend your daughter is. However, this girl was still only studying, therefore we cannot come to the conclusion that she was fully indocrinated. In such cases an xjw is better suited only because and I stress "ONLY" because they can relate. A christian who did not have the misfortune of being a jw cannot relate to the fear tactics or the deeply ingrained level of beliefs. Their mindset is so completely different that it makes makes it practically hopeless. I never do say never, but it is the norm.

  It is not judging you jgnat! It is not about you as a person at all! It is about the brainwashing! It is never the fault of the Christian if they cannot get through to the jw! It is the jw who just can't hear until some of his fears are surrendered and jw's are able to do that ONLY because they'd had the same fears.

  I absolutely believe that the ultimate eye-opening power is God's ALONE. We can only be used by him to reach someone. I hope that he will use you soon to help your boyfriend, just as he used your sweet daughter! love, dj

  Hi JT:

  I'd like to try to help you see that the idea of 'lock-step unity' of Christians is a very different thing from the JW's idea of unity. The jw's believe that a "division" is anytime one of their members doesn't agree with every single detail of every single little teaching. This, however is not the case with Christians!! We agree about what is truly important and that is the gospel...the saving grace of God. As far as different opinions about uncertain things (like if hell is actually fiery or not) they tend to not make an issue over differing opinions about the specifics. The only thing that really really matters to a Christian is the fact that Christ died for their sins to give them salvation and out of the realization of that unbelievable gift comes the desire to serve him and fruits begin to flow~ in appreciation and a changed more loving heart, thru the holy spirit who dwells within us. One of the problems with the WT is not only that they don't teach the gospel but they also call everything 'division'. Division is not when one person wants to celebrate a holiday and another person does not....etc..etc... This is plainly stated by Paul in Romans. There is no division among the members of Christians when it comes to the basic truth. The rest is a matter of conscience that comes thru love. I hope that helps you see that it is ok if one Christian thinks hell is literal fire and another thinks it a separation. No big deal. Christians who have maturity will not argue over the specifics that are uncertain. It is not that they wouldn't love to agree about everything that is unclear in the bible but out of love for one another they don't make it a communist faith where all have to march in line or they are gone. See the difference? Paul also taught about how one person would eat meat offered to idols and one did not. That did not make or break the fact that they were Christians. The WT just doesn't get it. They put conformity above love.

  I know that you never asked me this question JT. LOL I guess I was feeling preachy. Sorry if I stepped into terrotory where I am not welcome. I meant no harm. Love, dj
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  jgnat

  DJ, thank you for responding so quickly.

  I would agree with you that I have never had the society's fear-mongering ground in to my soul. The seemingly innocuous words to the rest of society, like Truth, Loyal, and Jehovah's Disapproval do not have the same magnetic affect on me as it has on XJW's. I am far more free to browse the Bible and interpret as I like, not having been knocked down for independent thinking in my faith.

  Also, I would agree there are no "quick fixes" when it comes to sharing with an active JW. I bet the average Christian would like a short booklet with key scriptures laid out and a ten-step process to guarantee success. There is just too much information about the society; their buzzwords and killjoy words; for the average Christian to jump in and whisk a JW out of their deception. I bring up inconsistency after inconsistency to my Honey, and hit the brick wall. Far more effective lately, is to remind him to obey some of the rules he really hates (but can't admit). The conflict between his natural man and the put-on JW man makes him crazy. I still maintain that love works, and anybody can do that. A neighbourly casserole, mowing the lawn, shovelling the sidewalk, friendly greetings...again, the conflict between what is, and how Babylon the Great is supposed to be, drives them crazy. There is no defence for love.

  I am sensitive, however, to suggestions that I cannot relate. Regardless of our differences in history, I have experienced abuse, hate, fear, manipulation, rejection, grief. It annoys me, for instance, to see widows and divorcees argue amongst each other who had it worse off. We do have experiences in common, and can support each other regardless of our differences.
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  DJ

  Hey jgnat,

  Look, I'll make you a deal.....if you ever find a 10-step sure fire way to free the dubs then I will _________________! In the meantime.................la la la .............we'll just trugde along with love and prayers. Take care!!!!!!!!! dj
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  jgnat

  DJ - Trudge along with love and prayers! I like that!
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  capbuster

  Hey guys and gals. I'm a Christian that has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Now to some that sentence is unaceptable, but to me it means that God loved us enough to send his Son to die for our sins, that all we have to do is believe that Jesus is the son of God and was crucified, and raised the third day. It's hard for people to accept the facts about the whole Bible. God does not send us to hell, people send themselves there by the worse sin of all, the sin of unbelief. Now if there is no hell, what does Luke mean in Chapter 16 verse19-31. Do we tear this out of the Bible or do we read it for what it says. I'm afraid to tear it out of mine. If God said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me. Now I may not be liked by saying this, but Jesus wasn't liked either for it.

  Capbuster

  Trotafox, I agree with you whole heartedly.
• 

  NeonMadman

  JT, I was going to comment on your latest response to me, but DJ said pretty much everything I would have said (and probably more eloquently), so I'll just say, "Yeah - what she said!"

  One of the neat things about being a Christian instead of a JW is that we don't have to agree on all the details. We can still have good, loving relationships with each other without being concerned that we might not agree on what a certain verse in Zechariah means.
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  DJ

  Hiya Neon,

  I hear that we have mutual friend (in real life.lol) Fran from tower to truth. I love Fran. He tried to help deprogram me along with my bro-in-law Keith. I was rough on those guys though. I had to yield to the spirit and let Him teach me..........then I got it. Anyway......I'll meet you in October in PA.....God willing. Look forward to it. My name is Donna (in real life..lol). In Christ, dj

  P.S. If you want to read it, part of my story is here http://www.exjws.net Click on PIONEERS and it's the first story....Donna.................