Scriptural rebuttal to disfellowshiping

by JG 33 Replies latest jw friends

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  JosephMalik

  Please know that disfellowshipping... or 'expelling from the synagogue'... was a "Pharisaical" teaching of Paul, for which he was reproved by the 12... and NOT a teaching of my Lord.

  Paul said: "Remove the wicked man..."

  Guest (SJ),

  Paul was one of the 12 and Paul was not reproved by the rest of the apostles on this matter. In fact Paul reproved them for keeping the LAW and it took him many years before he actually got through to them. Trying to get rid of Paul is not going to solve this problem. If you have proof show it, but your statement is not supported in your post.

  SJ said: My Lord said: "Go releasing and you will be released..."

  Paul said: "Neither... [these nor those] will inherit the kingdom..."

  The paraphrase you use here is not an answer. The questioner asks for proof? Where is it?

  SJ said: My Lord said: "It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of the heavens... [yet] with GOD... ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE..."

  In speaking as he did, Paul went 'beyond' the things taught by my Lord, in that he made sin of the flesh "unforgivable."

  How? Pauls projections were not final. But they were a warning to the sinner. Where is your proof? Explain in detail.

  Quoting a page of scriptures does not do it. Each verse must be identified and explained in detail. But saying that Paul writings are the problem here or that his words should not be recognized as valid brings dishonor to our Lord who chose him specifically and miraculously to represent the faith as one of the 12.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 20 September 2002 7:52:41
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  JosephMalik

  only God and Christ and the Holy Spirit can judge a person's heart.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  There is no such thing as A Holy Spirit that judges. In fact the scriptures even exclude the Father. But to phrase it as God? AND Christ AND the Holy Spirit makes 5 not three. The doctrine is a mess. Change it to Father and we have:

  John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

  However while humans like the apostle Paul cannot determine someones salvation as in the context of the above text they can judge others on matters of faith and have done so notice:

  1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

  Paul could do this because he received corrospondence from them and could make such decisions. And when the Corinthians over reacted to his remarks he had to write them to correct them once again. So he was not always understood, but that does not make him wrong. And we also have:

  1 Corinthians 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
  

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 20 September 2002 7:48:34
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  eisenstein

  I agree with all of the above, we would be so fortunate to have had all of you as loving shepherds in the congregation. Yea, I think the whole idea of disfellowshipping is unscriptual and unchristian. Whenever a person is in spiritual trouble for what ever reason, the last thing he or she needs is to be shunned and isolated.

  And like I mentioned on my post "he who is sinless cast the first stone". I don't think any judicial committee has a right to judge whether a person is unrepentent. And if they practiced that scripture(John 8:1-12), I mean it is in the bible for some reason, then it would alleviate a lot of disfellowshipping acts.

  Another scripture that comes to mind is the one where Jesus was talking about the Pharisees and he likened them to children who cried out to their playmates, "We played the flute for you, but you did not dance, we wailed, but you did not beat yourselves in grief."...John the babtist came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, "He has a demon"; the Son of man did come eating and drinking, still people say, 'Look! a man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.

  Jesus instituted a new law, the law inscribed on every person's heart. The whole law he taught was based on love and I just don't think the organization gets this. They are always quick to apply any scripture relating to religious leaders or pharisees to other religions, but they are making hard fast binding rules to the flock themselves.
• 

  MikeMusto

  Here is a great article
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  eisenstein

  It would be nice to have a Jubilee Year like the Nation of Israel has, only in a symbolic way. For the society to welcome back with open arms all of its disfellowshipped members. Except that I think for most, the damage has been too severe for any recovery.
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  AGuest

  Dearest Gumby... may you have peace...

  You said: "Shelby, your beliefs in Jesus have come from the Bible. Were it not for the Bible......you would have never known such a man existed....unless he revealed it to you in some way such as a vision or a dream."

  Please know that the latter is true, dear Gumby, that my beliefs in my Lord, whose name is NOT "Jesus" (the English rendering for the phrase "Je is Zeus" (Ieosus) or "Jah is God" - look up the Greek word "Zeus"), but JAHESHUA (JAH Saves) MISCHAJAH (Chosen/Anointed of JAH). It was he himself that revealed himself to me, personally, when I apparently asked God (known to me as "Jehovah" at the time) to do so. The Bible, actually, had left me confused... due to the many misrenderings, mistranslations... and misleadings of earthling man. It was not until I began to hear the voice of my Lord... and listen to THAT voice as it explained to me what was 'written'... that I began to know what was inspired... and what was not. Thus, some of what Paul taught... and wrote... was not. However, in his humility, Paul CONSTANTLY corrected himself. A review of his early writings compared with his later ones show this.

  My question is.....how is it you have seperated the Bible in that you do not believe Paul was an instrument of Jesus.......but you believe in Jesus?

  See above, and know that I don't simply 'believe' in my Lord, but KNOW him... and by knowing HIM know the FATHER... and am known BY him... as well as by the Father... for he himself 'chose' me for such knowledge. ; And it is he who has revealed the man, my brother, Paul... and his heart... to me. ; I have never seen or heard Paul, but I have most seen and heard ;my Lord.

  Let me ask you: does an anointing with holy spirit render one never 'wrong'? If so, how is that Paul recanted his admonition to remove the wicked man? How is that certain ones, who had received the same spirit as Paul, were preaching circumcision? How is that Peter conducted himself in hypocrisy, so that he was corrected by Paul? You misunderstand the spirit, dear one: while it indeed is perfect, WE... are not... so that when we walk OUTSIDE that spirit... and thus, outside of LOVE, as Paul, the others and Peter did, albeit briefly, we CAN conduct ourselves in error. We CAN speak our own will... rather than that of the One who bestowed such spirit upon us.

  Are the Gospels all that you believe in? What do you base this belief on if so?

  Since my salvation does not lay in believing what is written but rather lays in KNOWING God and Christ, it matters not to me what is written. Indeed, I can 'search the scriptures', but I will not find everlasting life in them. So they are not as important to ME... as they might be to YOU.

  As far as the writings go, however, I do know that the scriptures were inspired; that it, they were written when the writers were 'in the spirit'. However, the Gospels were NOT inspired, and thus are NOT scripture. Sorry, but that is true. The scriptures, dear one, are "Moses, the Prophets, Psalms" and the Revelation. If you would read Luke's entry to his accounts, you will see that he neither wrote BY inspiration or at the direction of the spirit, nor did he receive his information FROM the spirit. Rather, he wrote them after interviewing others who told him what they saw... and did this at the behest of Theophilus, a Roman ruler of Greek descent who wanted to discern what was occurring between the Jews and the Christians so as to know 'if these things were true'. I have not lied to you... but only told you what my Lord told ME... so that when I read it, I saw it was indeed true. Perhaps you will, too.

  Also remember what Jesus himself said about a brother who dosen't listen to you, or two, or the congregation. He said "let him be as a Man of the nations" I would say he is telling you to pass judgement on a man as unworthy to ..."be around"

  And yet, my Lord ALSO said, "STOP judging that you are not judged," yes? And so it is YOUR heart that wishes to judge, so that you see judgment in the words you quote. But truly, how are we to 'treat' a man of the nations, according to my Lord? How did he 'treat' the Phonecian woman, a 'man of the nations' who came to him? The Samaritan woman? The Army officer? His servant? The unclean? The sinful? Other than to refrain from throwing 'pearls' to those who don't WANT them, are we not to treat them as we would any other man, including our brother? Are we not to PROVE ourselves sons of our Father... by being 'perfect' in this... LOVING them?

  Matthew 5:43-46

  I don't KNOW the "Jesus" you claim to know, Gumby... for my Lord would not shut the door of his tender compassions upon any man. He did not gain disciples by shunning them; he GAINED them... by his love: by feeding, healing, teaching... and telling ALL to "come" to him. By FORGIVING them! And he received all that came... and rejected NONE, save the hypocritical Pharisees that bound heavy loads upon men that they themselves could not carry. Those he rejected because (1) they rejected HIM, and (2) they had judged themselves.

  My Lord has given me something for you to read: He has directed me to direct YOU... to John 8:1-11, and asks me to ask YOU... "which one of YOU... is withOUT sin?" Who, then, can YOU judge, condemn... and stone... or even turn your back on... due to their sin? Are not YOU to do to men "as you would have them do to YOU"? How, then, can you ask for... and expect to RECEIVE... forgiveness... if you yourself do not FORGIVE?

  Go RELEASING... Gumby... as did my Lord... FORGIVING people their sins and errors... whether they ASKED for it... or not! (But certainly if they do!)

  Again, I bid you peace!

  YOUR servant... and a slave of CHRIST,
  SJ
• 

  AGuest

  Dear JM... peace to you!

  The "proof" my dear one, is in the teachings and ACTIONS of my Lord. I bid you to read my response to Gumby and then consider what my Lord DID... and who he did it TO... and for! And I ask you, as the Son of God, with ALL authority... in heaven and on earth... who did HE condemn? Who did HE expel? Who did HE turn his back on?

  I give you none, besides the money changers, who had made my Father's house a house of merchandise, and the dark-hearted scribes and Pharisees who DID 'expel' and 'remove' those they felt to be wicked.

  As proof, I give you the FACT that my Lord condemned NO ONE for the sins of their flesh, but only those who revealed the sins... OF THEIR HEARTS... in that they 'hated' their brother by putting hypocritical, heavy loads upon them... that they themselves could not carry.

  As proof, I give you my Lord's WORDS... and ACTION (none)... toward the adulterous woman brought to him by the Pharisees. HE set the example in that very account. WE are to follow it. For she had indeed 'transgressed the law' so that under it, she SHOULD have been stoned. Did my Lord not 'fulfll one particle' of the law by failing to condemn and stone her? If so, then HE, too, transgressed it, yes? No! He TRANSCENDED the Law, by LOVING her... to the point of FORGIVING her... and could DO so, for love... is a fruit of the Spirit... and 'against such thing, there IS no law'! Paul initially knew the 'letter' of the Law, but it was my Lord who over time taught him the SPIRIT of it! Reread his writings... in chronological order... and you will 'see' this occurring.

  And if you need PROOF on how to love, dear JM... as well as forgive... then I implore you... "Look to the Rock from which you were hewn!"

  And I again bid you peace!

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  alamb

  'Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of
  injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and
  break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to
  provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe
  him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light
  will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then
  your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be
  your rear guard. (Isaiah 58:6-8 NIV)
• 

  JosephMalik

  SJ.

  I am not supporting disfellowshipping as practiced by the Watchtower. Their practice is wrong as they are the real apostates in this matter. This is easily proven from their own literature. The scriptures they apply to the supposed wrongdoer also apply to their leardership and their appointed henchmen. The ones with the power win over the ones with the truth. This is the real tragedy and judgment awaits them. But we are permitted to make judgements regarding individuals as shown after full disclosure of the facts and such judgment cannot be dictated to us. Therefore my post regarding your comments stands as written and speaks for itself. When posed with such problems our Lord expects us to judge others but He also expects us to make the right choices not evil ones.

  Luke 7:43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 20 September 2002 12:52:34
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  stichione

  By today's WTS standards CT Russel and JF Rutherford and all Bible Students or Dubs that read and believed their signed publications would be DF'd today because practically all they taught is considered apostate by current WTS teachings. Isn't that incredible?!