People should learn more about the Bible flaws

by opusdei1972 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Phizzy

  Thanks Caleb, useful info.

  What I believe should happen is that from a very early age the kids are taught the art of Critical Thinking, which they can use when considering the Bible, the Koran and all other subjects. They have it in good measure to start with, how many times will they ask "Why", which means they are looking for reasons and proof.

  Sadly this is drummed out of them by an education system that does not have the time to look at all things from many angles, and little time to answer questions, hence the kids get out of the habit.

  It is usually not until they enter University that the Critical Thinking approach is re-introduced.

  Which is why the G.B is so against Uni.

  Once you start asking for proof to back up the JW claims, that is the end of any faith/belief in the Borg, they have no proof.
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  Viviane

  So if someone can actually PROVE that Adam never had intercourse with Eve, then bring it on. Otherwise, simply doubting the story until proven is just a personal choice.

  Done.

  
  
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  Mephis

  If you treat the bible as one would any other ancient text, it's fairly profitable. There's a lovely breakdown of logic in the view that "the bible is accurate because parts of it have been supported by archaeology". Well, yes. It's the parts which aren't supported which tend to be the big ones though - creation myths, flood sagas and dead men coming back to life. It's of little surprise that around the time a scribal tradition arose in the community of exiled Jews that things get into synch with the histories of other nations. One is also tempted to see the mythologies of at least one nation entering into the Jewish origin myths (eg creation cycle, flood saga, Moses' birth etc.). It's fairly amusing to see the same story, when on a Babylonian tablet, identified as myth but when found in Jewish tales claimed as literal truth.

  I think it's difficult to put this into schools in countries where there are strong faith traditions which will push against anything which is directly highlighting problems within the beliefs of a particular religion. There shouldn't be room, however, for children to leave school without at least being shown the scientific evidence for the origins of life. History has a hard enough time getting adequate time on the curriculum here (and is subject to all kinds of political interventions and directives in any case), so I can't see how one could shoehorn that into a packed schedule. Overall, isn't the best thing to do to ensure that children are equipped to use their brains and be critical in the information they believe? A general approach seems best suited - whether to understand how marketing works or how to research the beliefs of a religion or even how to look past the headlines. One could almost link it in with the similar subset of skills used to critique a text.
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  Finkelstein

  The real trouble starts when people take the words of the bible as factual information when in reality it mostly fictional mythological story telling, expressed to create a semblance of power and relevance to select worshiped god/deity of the ancient Hebrews YHWH .
  

  This proposed propagation that the words in the bible are real, is mostly propagated by men who wanted and desired power within themselves. ie. the past presidents and GB members of the WTS/JWS organization.

  Organized religion is a game of power and control for men to immerse themselves in.
  
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  LorenzoSmithXVII

  The one thing that I find effective about JWs is that they are so incredibly dismissive of "higher education." They do not encourage their members to do any real college and to them anything non-biblical or secular may as well be inspired by Satan! That creates a system where people live in an academic vacuum. And it creates a system of distrust of what someone might tell you, especially if you don't understand it.

  The other thing is is simple blind faith. If you don't really know how to check behind some of these academic claims that are made, then you can just dismiss them on blind faith and trust the Bible. That works out to be a successful practice since literary issues relating to the Bible seldom effect everyday life.

  Yet another circumstance I've observed by interacting with other Christians, like Baptists and the like, is that they seldom get into textual issues or historical issues. Their religion focuses on Christ's sacrifice and how God helps them in their daily lives and their religion thrives because it is more emotional. They go to church, hear that preacher performing, hear those inspirational gospel songs about going to heaven and how much Jesus loves them and that's about it. If you ask them about the 1000-year reign of Christ and who is Satan tempting after that reign is over, they draw a blank and don't want to change that.

  But if there's anything I got from being a JW that I appreciate, it's the total disdain for anything secular. It's almost like a "sin" to go into a library and read anything Biblical or related to Bible history that isn't provided for you by the WTS. That healthy disdain has served me well because major institutions of higher learning are often more institutions of propaganda than education. They have their own agenda and are just as determined to control minds and ideas in the world as the WTS is. The fallacy of people who sport the importance of higher education is not realizing the level of dishonesty people in the academic field are capable of.

  The best policy is to be objective and enter the field of discovery with the presumption that everybody is lying and has their own agenda. There is no difference for those supporting higher education who presume the Bible is in error than those who support the Bible who enter the discussion presuming the secular references are in error. I don't mind letting the Bible stand on its own merit, but I always presume those publishing in the field have their own agenda and don't trust them, particularly any Jewish writers or historians whom I've found are consistently suspect at every single turn. Don't forget the Jews gave us the Kabbalah. They don't believe Jesus Christ is the true messiah. So they have their own loyalties and agendas just as any other organization such as the WTS.
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  Mephis

  Oh Lars. No. If you can overturn orthodoxy convincingly, you get tenure. In the sciences, it puts you in for a Nobel prize. In history, it takes longer to filter through but new ideas, supported by evidence, do percolate and shift prior views. (My own field has seen massive changes in accepted views since the 70s, all because one academic asked a question no-one had thought to ask before - though I'd expect the History channel not to have caught up for another 10 or 20 years yet!). Questioning is encouraged - in fact, it's part of the academic process of comparing and contrasting arguments and weighing up the evidence. And dishonesty is harshly penalised when discovered to have been intentional. One simply cannot equate religion and higher education. Although I do take the point that there can be politicisation of some things which taints research. I've seen academic papers given in one language missing critical conclusions available in others. It happens at times and says more about humans and politics than it does about higher education. The truth will out...
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  LorenzoSmithXVII

  Finkelstein7 minutes agoThe real trouble starts when people take the words of the bible as factual information when in reality it mostly fictional mythological story telling, expressed to create a semblance of power and relevance to select worshiped god/deity of the ancient Hebrews YHWH .
  This proposed propagation that the words in the bible are real, is mostly propagated by men who wanted and desired power with themselves. ie. the past presidents and GB members of the WTS/JWS organization.
  Organized religion is a game of power and control for men to immerse themselves in.

  This is one phenomenon that amazes me. How such a large percentage of XJWs end up not believing in the Bible at all or becoming an atheist. I got disgusted totally with the WTS and its false teachings, but went completely into the opposite direction, developing a personal relationship with God and avoiding any type of organized religion. But I have no problem presuming someone very intelligent designed the universe and created life on the earth. That is something I maintained from my JW upbringing. My daughter is someone who was raised around the witnesses but rejected the "truth" per se. She got into a little "Wiccan" which I really don't know much about. She might be one who would say the Bible is a book of myths too. But amazingly, she thinks atheists are idiots. That it, it is clear to her just looking at nature and being amazed by it that there must be a creator, whether or not accurately represented by the Bible.

  I tend to like atheists because they have less sexual hang-ups than fundamentalists (grin).

  Such is the complex world we live in. And now our governments are basically embracing "human rights" in general and not tripping on the individual beliefs of others. I certainly support that. Share if you wish, but don't be too judgmental of the beliefs of others or their inability not to be fooled by smooth talkers.
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  CalebInFloroda

  Some of you hit the problem right on the head. Basic public educational systems leave what I like to call the "how-to-think-with-your-brain" lessons for later in life, like the university system. Primary education for youths today is more of telling people WHAT to learn instead of teaching them HOW to learn. While I learned the scientific method as a kid and started using it right away as a junior meteorologist by age 10, I can't say that these lessons seemed to have been universal or taught well enough to be remembered or practical enough for others to keep and apply as they grew up. That's how and where critical thinking often needs to start IMHO.

  And people need to stop listening to Fundamentalist Christians and JWs about archeology backing up the Bible. While the locations may exist, and some of the people are historical, the same can be argued for "Gone With the Wind!"

  If you look closer at the archeological evidence you will see that while King David was real, that it wasn't until he took the throne that the worship of YHWH replaced the worship of family idol-gods. While the general details of Moses and the Mosaic Law appear older than the written record, there are clear redactions and interpolations to the current written code that appear in the Torah.

  And it isn't that this makes Jews reject their culture or religion, but it is more that others prefer to reject the empirical evidence. This distorts Torah and the rest of the Tanakh by claiming that only a Christian religious mindset can know the truth about such things when in reality it doesn't take a Jew or a theist to comprehend what is really there.
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  Finkelstein

  But I have no problem presuming someone very intelligent designed the universe and created life on the earth.

  Why would you assume an intelligent designer created the universe, when for example millions of years go huge asteroids hit this planet like the other planets in this solar system and wiped out most living things on earth ?

  Why would an intelligent designer design stars such as are own sun to eventually burn out creating a black hole ?
  

  So yes are own sun will eventually burn out too.
  

  I tend to like atheists because they have less sexual hang-ups than fundamentalists (grin).

  A bit irrelevant . I've know many fundamentalist who were sexual loose in their sexual conduct but they tried to suppress that behavior by virtue of their religion, which availed them to cover over themselves with a white sheet.
  

  Atheism is very much connected to humanism, meaning searching for facts and trying to work with those facts to help humanity endure and resolve the many problems humanity faces. No spiritualism is involved ie. Wicca
  
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  Finkelstein

  Something else worthy to point out is that many diverse ancient civilizations told stories about their select gods, such as how they helped them and what angered them too.

  What is a bit unique with the ancient Hebrews is that they used scribed writings in their expressive story telling, similar to other ancient civilization ie. Egyptians , Sumerians but they were still under their own ignorance of the world in which they lived in, as were the other civilizations of that time in human era.