Does anyone have an explanation of "Babylon the Great" as described in the book of Revelation different than as explained by Jehovah's Witnesses. Thanks in advance pie
Babylon the great
by perfectpie 28 Replies latest jw friends
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MDS
Hi Perfectpie:
Here is some info posted back in February.
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"SHE LIVES IN SHAMELESS LUXURY" WITH THE "KINGS OF THE EARTH"
Revelation 17:18 & 18:9,10 says of "Babylon the Great":
"And the woman whom you saw means the Great City that has a KINGDOM OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH." -- Revelation 17:18
Yes, mysterious "Babylon the Great," as foretold in the Bible, does indeed have a "kingdom," or government, or holds authority over these "kings of the earth." She has much authority and power over these "kings." These "kings" actually "answer" to Babylon the Great, the Great City. But who really are these "kings," we ask? Let's consider more as we shall see...
"And the KINGS OF THE EARTH who committed fornication with her and LIVED IN SHAMELESS LUXURY [with her] will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they lookat the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!"
Yes, we these "kings of the earth" that Babylon has a "kingdom over," and holds authority over, yes, they also "live in shameless luxury with "Babylon the Great." Yes, that's "with Babylon the Great,"...they enjoy the "fruits" of her wealth...together...yes together. -- Revelation 17:2, 18; 18:9,10
Some one might say, one of JWs:
"I believe the Kings of the earth must represent the political rulers, all over the earth", that the wily, world empire of false religion exhibits somehow, some uncanny superior "control", power over.
This is what the WTS teaches on the matter. But, is this truly the case? Let’s see.
Actually, upon examination, the word "kings" is an interesting word here, in the verses cited above from the book of Revelation. (Revelation 17:2; 18; 18:9, 10) It is the Greek word [basileus] which according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and Dictionary: is taken from a word that gives the "notion of a foundation of power; a sovereign [either] abstractly, relatively, or figuratively." In other words, it would include any person in a position of "power" or authority, either "abstractly, relatively, or figuratively." It is a relative term and therefore is not limited to political figures, necessarily.
Again, someone may object here and say:
"…clearly now, it says `kings of the earth.' And that would have to be political figures, political rulers of our secular world, wouldn't it?"
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In fact, we could take it a step further and say with complete confidence, these "kings of the earth" CANNOT be political figures themselves. Why?
Because when the Woman [Babylon the Great] is said to be destroyed by the scarlet-colored political "beast," yes, the "kings of the earth" are "STANDING AT A DISTANCE," yes, “standing at a distance,” weeping profusely over her destruction, as clearly indicated at Revelation 18:9,10. – Please consider.
Yes, according to Revelation 18:9 & 10, these verses, clearly places these "kings of the earth" in a different perspective from the political "beast" that carries out the devastation upon Babylon!
Of course, devoted JWs at this point would surely say,
“Let's check the WTS’ publications…I don’t think we have the clear understanding of what the WTS teaches here…something is wrong, clearly…let’s check out the publications…the WTS' publications on the matter.”
Yes, let’s get the actual quotes from the Watch Tower Society to clear up the matter of just who these "kings of the earth" are. Let's first notice this quote concerning the "ten horns" of Revelation 17:12-14 who carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great. On page 594 par. # 1 of the publication "Babylon the Great HAS FALLEN! -- God Kingdom Rules," we find this comment. It says:
"In Daniel's prophecy, horns on the head of a symbolic animal are used to represent individual kings or national rulers. As the number ten is used in the Bible to stand for earthly completeness or perfection, the expression "ten horns" would symbolize, not ten literally, but ALL OR THE COMPLETE NUMBER OF KINGS OR NATIONAL RULERS ON EARTH."
Yes, in this explanation, "ten" represents earthly completeness and therefore stands for the "COMPLETE NUMBER of kings or national rulers on earth." Yes, these "kings" will be united in their destruction of Babylon the Great.
However notice this comment from the same publication on page 609 par. # 1 on the subject of the "kings of the earth." It states:
"Those mourning kings could hardly be identical in personality with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast that hate the harlot, Babylon the Great, and devastate her and burn her with fire. They are kings or political rulers who fornicated and enjoyed shameless luxury with her during her popularity and who do not turn on her. They have been taken by surprise, because, as they themselves mournfully say, Jehovah's execution of judgment upon her arrived `in one hour.' What fun they used to have with her! But, when judgment comes like a thief, they cannot help or preserve her for their further unclean pleasure. Afraid to interfere, they stand off in fear of sharing the fiery torment with her. Still, they share responsibility for her crimes. So, next in order they will inescapably suffer pain when God executes judgment upon them."
TIME TO THINK A LITTLE
Well, now let's think about what we have just read. YES, THINK! (Proverbs 3:21) In the first explanation, they say the "ten horns" are the "complete number of kings or national rulers on earth." These "kings" carry out the destruction of Babylon the Great. But in the second explanation, they say that the "mourning" kings of the earth "could hardly be identical in personality with the symbolic ten horns of the scarlet colored wild beast." Well, if the "ten horns" picture the "complete" number of rulers upon the earth, then who are these other "kings," who stand at a distance? Yes, who are they? Can you believe your eyes! Yes, the Watch Tower Society, in less than 15 pages apart in the same book, totally contradicts themselves!
Those pages again are: 594 par. 1 and 609 par. 1, from the “Babylon the Great Has Fallen – God’s Kingdom Rules” Publication. Check out for yourself and see if this is not what the WTS teaches.
Remember, the Watchtower Society says that the "beast" actually represents the political rulers of the world, right? And yet they also say that the "kings of the earth" are `weeping' because of her destruction. Now, we must ask,
how can the "kings of the earth" be "weeping" over her destruction and at the same time be the very ones carrying out her destruction? How can that be?
Why its simply an impossibility!
If that were true, the "kings of the earth" would have to be in two places at the same time, wouldn't they? And we know, that's not so.
“THE KINGS … WHO LIVED WITH HER IN SHAMELESS LUXURY”
Also, another important clue being overlooked that would have helped sincere Jehovah's Witnesses identify this mystery Woman is given to us at Revelation 18:9,10 which says:
"And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in SHAMELESS LUXURY will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, 'Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!Really, are the secular kings of this world, divided in their opinion, even "weeping" over the destruction of Babylon the Great, as the scriptures indicate above? Are some political kings over here in favor of destroying Babylon the Great and other political kings over there not in favor of destroying her? Is that what the verses indicate, above?
No, the book of Revelation itself, does not teach this as we shall soon see! And further we must ask, another question: what do the kings of the secular world really have to "fear" concerning the destruction of Babylon the Great, anyway? In what way, can “fear” be inspired in the Political Rulers of this earth, with only the destruction of “Babylon the Great?” In what way? Actually, these “king of the earth,” would only be in “fear” because of the destruction of Babylon the Great, unless, yes unless, perhaps, they are somehow CONNECTED with this great, wicked religious entity…somehow connected with her…somehow. Thus suggesting the idea that they are NOT Political “kings,” at all…no not at all. “Kings,” but not political “kings.”
Let's explore these thoughts…these possibilities.
First of all, the kings of this secular world would have nothing to "fear" from the destruction of Babylon the Great, since they are the very ones carrying out this destruction! Think about it! What sense does it make to think that the very individuals bringing about Babylon's destruction, are really "weeping" over her and in great "fear?" Does that make sense to you?
Also, they would not be "standing off at a distance" either. No, because they are right there, yes, very present, carrying out this powerful destruction work! And the Bible makes quite clear that they are not half-hearted or divided even in this wrecking work! They delight in doing it! Revelation 17:12-14 plainly says:
"And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings, one hour with the wild beast. These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast..."
Did you notice that "ten kings" are spoken of here? As you recall, the Watchtower Society teaches that the number "ten" is a number of earthly completeness. Therefore, if what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, all the "kings of the earth" are in harmony with the destruction of "Babylon the Great, right? And if they have "one thought" or one idea about destroying her, then they are not divided in anyway, in thought or in action. They work as a team.
Also, how about the expression "SHAMELESS LUXURY" mentioned at Revelation 18:9? This too is an important clue in identifying the mysterious Babylon the Great. We remember it is also said of Babylon the Great that she lives in "shameless luxury." Yes she is filthy rich and quite lavish in her spending...UPON HERSELF! (Revelation 18:7) Could it be possible that the two are somehow sharing the wealth??? Could it be? Yes, could there be a sharing of the wealth, as it were. Notice:
"And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." -- Revelation 17:18
Yes, she has authority even over these particular figurative "kings of the earth." She has a government, or "kingdom" over these "kings" or officials of the earth." Obviously, her "kingdom" or government is not a secular government of any kind – no, not based upon what we have learned thus far. Therefore, this must be a figurative government or rulership, yes "kingdom." Could it be that these high officials or "kings" are the leaders or authority figures of the one and same organization that Babylon reigns supreme over as "Queen?" — See Revelation 18:7
"THOSE DWELLING ON THE EARTH"
But, why does it say "kings of the earth?" Certainly this would mean rulers of the planet earth in which we inhabit, wouldn't it? Well, let's go back to the eleventh chapter of Revelation to clear up this matter. We read at Revelation 11:7-10 concerning the activity of the "Two Witnesses" this:"And when they [Two Witnesses] have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth."
These verses contain some important clues to help us identify Babylon the Great. First, we notice that the Two Witnesses' ministry torment "those dwelling on the earth." Now, who is being "tormented" here, the world of over 6 billion plus? Hardly, since it would take a massive army indeed to reach so many people! From what we know of the coming "Two Witnesses" as mentioned in prophecy, they will prove to be a small army, by comparison. These "Two Witnesses," will be assigned the task of carrying out a particular ministry toward a particular people on earth today, and not the world in general. Yes, "judgment starts with the House of God." Therefore, their ministry is confined to these particular people, the "House of God." John himself was told at Revelation 11:1 to:
"Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshipping in it."
Now, who would that be?
Well, who do you think would best represent:
(a) the temple or sanctuary,
(b) the altar,
(c) and those worshiping in it?Again, before you answer that question, add to it this thought:
"they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months."
Again, who do you think would best fit this description?
Clearly, it has to be someone who is involved in "worship;" someone designated as the "holy city." Obviously, someone, although rendering sacred service to God, yet needing to be "measured." Does this not indicate the actual reason and need for a "42 month trampling" period? Jehovah does not exact punishment without there being a real cause, does He? (Please read Proverbs 26:2.) This description therefore, could fit no people better than the Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation!
Actually, whether they know it or not, Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization are directly tied into the prophetic drama! Because Babylon the Great will be proved to be, in the near future, clearly revealed to be, noneother than, the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, with its Governing Body, which presently leads 6 million clueless Jehovah's Witnesses, in some over 90,000 congregations worldwide. However, before we go any farther, let us make this important point:
The actual "fall" of Babylon the Great, which will ultimately lead to the GRAND EXODUS of numerous Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation in the not-to-distant future, still, has not yet occurred. It is a future event.
No, this particular "fall" that “Babylon the Great” will suffer, AKA Watchtower Society, is a future event, as the Bible shows.
Nevertheless, at this point, someone will say:
"Well, what about Christendom?" Why couldn't Christendom, as well the religions of pagandom, still prove to be the wicked "Babylon the Great," as the Watchtower Society has said?
Well, could you really say that, Christendom is a "holy city," in any way? Actually, Christendom in no way could be said to be a "holy city," or likened to the `city where the Lord was impaled,' Jerusalem. (Revelation 11:8) Neither could Christendom be said to be in a "covenant" relationship with Jehovah. And since they are not in a "covenant" relationship with Jehovah, neither could they be "acting wickedly AGAINST that covenant,"[/i] the New Covenant instituted by Jesus Christ, at Pentecost of the first century. No, Jehovah would not make a "covenant" with someone who worships Jesus Christ, His Son. Christendom has been purely idolatrous from the start, 1700 years ago! (Daniel 11:30, 32) Further, those who are "worshipping" at the "temple" and "altar" are really "priests." Yes, Priests! Now, who could better fit this description than the "priests" or spiritual leaders at Brooklyn Headquarters, where the "altar" and "temple/sanctuary" are.
Let's notice verse 6 in the same chapter. It says:
"These [Two Witnesses] have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish."
Again, to whom is the attack of the "Two Witnesses" directed? To the world in general, the whole 6 billion inhabitants of this planet we call earth? Hardly! The word "earth" here must mean those who are a part of the organization that supports the "priestly" functions spoken of in verses 1 and 2.
Therefore the "kings of the earth" are really authority figures of the Watchtower Society. These would include Brooklyn Headquarters staff, Branch Overseers, Districts Overseers, and Circuit Overseers, world-wide. These ones will "commit fornication" with the woman by willingly supporting the Society in it's perverse and apostate actions of "placing the Beast" in the place where he "ought not be" — in the "holy place" or in the organization itself! They will comply and support the Watchtower Society when it gives full support to this filthy, political beast-like United Nations organization out of fear to save their `own hides.' -- Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Revelation 21:8
These "kings" know full well what they are doing and they know exactly what the Watch Tower Society is doing. Yes, they willingly go along with the Society's adulterous antics, to mix politics with religion in dealing with the "Johnny come lately," ruthless and oppressive "king of the North." ... a Future Event. (Daniel 11:32) These "kings of the earth" are the key men that help the Society maintain it's control over the international "many waters" where the woman sits on top as "queen" and "mother." -- Revelation 17:1,5,7,15
"SHE SITS AS A QUEEN"
Now, how many times have we as Jehovah's Witnesses heard the expression:
the "mother organization" or "mother Bethel?"
She is viewed almost the same way the Catholics view the "Virgin Mother Mary." How disgusting! How revolting! It is even blasphemous! And who are the main ones promulgating such viewpoints? Why, primary authority figures: Branch Overseers, District Overseers and Circuit Overseers, who else. And of course, the "kings of the earth" are said to enjoy "shameless luxury" just as does the woman. And in actuality, these "kings" really do reap the benefits in being authority figures for the Society, since their every need and want is taken care of by the "brothers" in the organization. They truly have become an "expensive burden" upon the brethren. (Please read 1 Thessalonians 2:9.) In America, the health care, dental care, clothing bill...and as we all know...they wear only the finest suits and use only the finest toiletries...items that really cost the "brothers" millions of dollars each year! We all know this, as Jehovah's Witnesses, do we not?
And what about their VEHICLES, yes, all of those expensive "Suburbans", only new ones will do...don't you remember, and also those expensive TRAVEL TRAILERS and APARTMENTS, which may cost the brothers, yes, the brothers, in some instances, in excess $50,000 or more EACH! It has been reported that, in one circuit, leading elders got together, over 50 of them, and personally purchased, a BUS MOTOR HOME, a bus, an expensive home on wheels, valued somewhere in the neighborhood of close to $250,000, and was privately presented as a "gift" to a Circuit Overseer in the USA. Amazing indeed!
Now, what kind of example, would such an individual be setting for the lowly pioneer brothers, he has to serve...is he imitating the example of Paul, as a Missionary? Is this even the attitude held out to Pioneers who have transportation problems?
Let's see. Lets notice this comment taken from the Watchtower magazine on the subject of "pioneering" despite obstacles with the all important "self-sacrificing" spirit that must be maintained. We chose this quote because it particularly deals with the question of "transportation" or lack of it. And we quote:
"If a car costs more than the pioneer can afford, why be forced to stop the pioneer ministry just to have a car? Many find it possible to pioneer even in rural territory without a car by traveling with others or using public transportation or riding a bicycle or just by walking. After all, Jesus did not have a car or even a bicycle to get around the territory where he preached, and much of it was rural territory. All in the full-time ministry, whether congregation publishers or pioneers, do well to cultivate the attitude of the apostle Paul, who said, `So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.' (1 Timothy 6:8) Paul did not worry about getting a racing chariot to help him in his travels."
Did you get the point? The lowly "pioneer" is supposed to be self-sacrificing, no he does not need a car, even in rural territory! Yes, HE CAN WALK! — See 1971 Watchtower pgs. 337, 338 par. 13.
However, do we see any Traveling Overseer "walking" to his assignment like Jesus? Do we? Do we see any Branch Overseer, District Overseer or Bethel Elder, and heaven forbid, Governing Body member "walking" or `doing without' the same way that Jesus exemplified? Do we? (Matthew 8:20) What disgusting hypocrites they are! Are not the religious leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Notice what Jesus said of them:
"Therefore all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger." Think about it. — Matthew 23:3, 4
In fact, most, (with very few exceptions) could not with a clear conscience, say as did Paul:"I have coveted no man's silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me." — Acts 20:33, 34
Yes, Paul worked with his "own hands" to attend to the needs of himself and those in his company. No, Traveling Overseer (Circuit or District) or penthouse-dwelling, yes, no PATTERSON ESTATE-DWELLING, Bethelite can really say this, can they? Yes, the Grand, Lavish Patterson Estate, yes, this entire estate which was built with the brothers HARD EARNED MONEY, from all around the world, yes, this estate, which could easily be valued at some 200 MILLION DOLLARS! Yes, some 200 million dollars – easily comparible to the Bible’s description of the “LUXURIOUS," LAVISH-LIVING of “Queen,” Babylon the Great herself. Who can deny this? She clearly lives lavishly, as the bible said she would. And other live lavishly with her too…just as the Bible predicted about her… Who hasn’t heard of “Patterson-Estate,” the Great Education Center for Jehovah’s Witnesses. But is it a real education center, or what? And whose being “educated,” anyway? What is the real purpose of building such Lavish surrounding? Who gets to live there?
Really, as you know, only the “higher ups” from Bethel, the high officials at Bethel Headquarters…get to live there…not he common laborer. No, but the “LUXURY,” the true “luxury-living,” is only reserved for these “Kingly” Bethelites whose apartments could be valued in the thousands of dollars per residence, while many of our brothers are living as indigents, in total poverty, in many parts of the earth…in some instances, not able to even afford collectively a kingdom hall between.
Case in Point: It has been revealed, thru the pages of the Watchtower Magazine itself, that some FIFTY (50) Congregations in Maputo City (Mozambique) are struggling to build ONE SINGLE KINGDOM HALL, that’s one kingdom hall, BETWEEN THEM. – See August 15, 1992 Watchtower pg. 24. Par. # 1
Now, how do you explain such a situation existing, when brothers are denoting money, constantly denoting money by way of the “Kingdom Hall Building Fund,” – how can you explain such a sitation developing…and pouring close to 200 MILLION DOLLARS in the Patterson-Estate facility (when you consider costly time denoted, materials, labor and other factors), and reserving it ONLY, yes only for the "Heavies," as they are called, the "Higher Ups" at Bethel?
How can any sincere Jehovah's Witness, explain this?
Is this not living in “luxury” on the part of the Watch Tower Society? The Bible says “she lives in SHAMELESS LUXURY,” that’s “shameless luxury”…she has no “shame” at all about how she lives and how see uses the money…while the brothers suffer…do we not see this with our very eyes today? What do you say? – See Revealtion 18:3, 7, 9.
Actually, what Branch Committee Overseer, District Overseer, Circuit Overseer, with very few exceptions, which one on the Watchtower Society’s payroll, worldwide can say what Paul did with a clear conscience, as mentioned below:
"I have coveted no man's silver or gold or apparel. You yourselves know that these hands have attended to the needs of me and of those with me." — Acts 20:33, 34
And also:
“For I do not mean for it to be easy for others, but hard on you; but that by means of an equalizing your surplus just now might offset their deficiency, in order that their surplus might also come to offset your deficiency, that an equalizing might take place. Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.” – 2 Corinthians 8:14, 15
Do you think the WTS wishes to follow the counsel of Paul, when it comes to money, sharing money, yes millions of dollars that have been denoted to them? Is the WTS interested in an “offsetting of deficiency” among our poorer, less fortunate brothers, the inspired writer Paul, clearly recommended? Are they interested an “equalizing” of finances, say for example, in Maputo, Mozambique, Africa, and other poorer lands where financial help could be put to good use?
Or, would the WTS rather, continue to live in “SHAMELESS LUXURY,” in the GRAND PATTERSON-ESTATE? Which?
Which pursuit is “closer to the heart,” of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses? An “Equalizing,” an “offsetting of deficiencies” among the brotherhood worldwide, … or “LUXURIOUS,” lavish living for themselves…which?
We know the answer, don’t we? Indeed, all of the lavish-living, the “shameless luxury,” you see today, tell the story all too clearly. A person would have be clearly insane to say otherwise. The facts are right before our very eyes. All the “Shameless Luxury,” the Lavish-living you see by the “Kings of the Earth,” come from monies, funds, donated, yes contributed from the brothers worldwide, in one form or another. And these funds are clearly misappropriated. And it is done in a “shameless” fashion, without even trying to hide it. And whats worse, only the future will tell just how extravagant they will become in their pursuit of "luxury" after "climbing upon the back" of the [political] "beast" organization…yes, just after Spring of 2003. -- Revelation 17:3
Yes, this message have been "related" to Israel, even "in detail." -- See Acts 13:40, 41.
MDS
TO MODERN-DAY "ISRAEL" (Jehovah's Witnesses):
"...Therefore see to it that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon you, Behold it, you scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in your days, a work that you will by no means believe even if anyone RELATES IT TO YOU IN DETAIL." -- Acts 13:40,41
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aChristian
Perfect,
Revelation is a book that can be, and has been, interpreted a thousand different ways. So no one can say for sure what or who Babylon the Great was meant to portray. However we do have some clues.
Revelation indicates that Babylon the Great is an entity that exists at the time of Christ's return. So it may not now even exist at all. It is an entity that will at the time of Christ's return "commit fornication with the kings of the earth." Many Christians believe that shortly before Christ's return all nations on earth will join together to form one world government under the direction of the Antichrist. If this is true, and if most Christian Church organizations then endorse this one world government and its leader, who may then claim to be Christ himself, as being worthy of Christian support and allegiance, their actions at that time may constitute spiritual fornication. This act of spiritual fornication may then act to identify them as being part of Babylon the Great.
I think it is helpful to remember what Babylon was. It was a nation which held God's people in bondage. God's people then were the nation of Israel. Today God's people are Christians. Who now holds most of the world's Christians in bondage? Legalistic Christian Church organizations, a term which accurately describes, to some degree, all Christian sects.
So Revelation's "Babylon the Great" may portray all Christian sects which lend their support to the Antichrist shortly before Christ's return. This is only my guess. Of course, your understanding of this matter is as valid as mine. I will not, however, say that about everyone's understandings. I think you would be wise to disregard the interpretations of those who presumptuously claim to speak for God Himself, such as the Watchtower and MDS here.
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Pathofthorns
MDS, I think you make good points until you apply the WT to bible prophecy. The WT is a speck on the world religious scene and amounts to essentially nothing in the big picture in the stream of time.
It's financial affairs and how they use their money is really not unique to the WT, but rather common to many religions and organizations.
Again, the facts regarding the WT and money are well taken, but applying that to Bible prophecy only makes you like them when you take a mickey mouse religion and believe it has any impact on mankind's affairs. To me you sound like just another version of the WT with your 1960's-District Convention-sounding speech style. I might as well go read an old Watchtower.
Path
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oanai
Hey aChristian.
Just forget it. You didn't quote a scripture after every other paragraph like mds did, so the WT-trained won't be as "impressed" with your interpretations as they are with the DA'd appostate known as mds.
Path:
To me you sound like just another version of the WT with your 1960's-District Convention-sounding speech style. I might as well go read an old Watchtower.
I affectionately call this new religion (JW 2.0). I think the name is very suitable. At least mds is going for folks who think they care more about God than the protestants who defected over to Coresh.
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MDS
CYRUS THE GREAT LIBERATES "ISRAEL"
One other interesting thing we can find out about "Babylon the Great," the "Great City," is its close correlation to ancient Israel and the religious leaders of that day...and the need for a "deliverer" from Babylon. -- Romans 11:26
We remember, "Cyrus the Great," was used by God to "liberate" Israel from captivity and "Babylon the Great."
Isaiah 44:28-45:2 says:
"The One saying of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out; even in my saying of Jerusalem, She will be rebuilt, and of the temple, You will have your foundation laid. This is what Jehovah has said to his ANOINTED ONE, to CYRUS, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be sut: Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down."
Yes, Cyrus the Great, the "anointed one" of Jehovah, did deliver, give "deliverance" to Israel, from Babylon the Great. the Great "Shepherd" of God. Cyrus was this. Jehovah's "Anointed" One. the Liberator, the Deliverer. And of course, this was at God's Hand, with the fall of Babylon to Cyrus the Great, in 539 BCE. Shortly, after this, the Jews were freed and allowed to go back to their homeland...believed to be around 537-536 BCE.
JESUS CHRIST, THE GREATER "CYRUS"
Many years later, we find the "Greater Cyrus," Jesus Christ, brought about a great and powerful "deliverance," too... from "Babylon the Great" for the nation of "Israel." Spiritually speaking...
Now, how can we say this?
At Luke 4:17-21, Jesus quotes from the book of Isaiah 61st chapter and applies his ministry, to that particular chapter and states his ministry actually "fulfills" whats stated there.
"So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: Jehovah's spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah's acceptable year. With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. Then he started to say to them: To day this scripture that you just heard IS FULFILLED."
The expression "good news," an expression FOUNDED UPON THE PROPHETIC BOOKS, first mentioned there, is actually born from the fact of God's promise to Israel to do two distinct things. They are:
a) LIBERATE the Jewish nation from Babylon, freedom
b) being allowed to GOVERN THEMSELVES again, have their own government, with God, Jehovah as King.
Thus,..."good news" to Israel, an "Israel," who was to be held in captivity to the nation of Babylon for 70 years. -- Daniel 9:2
Isaiah 61st chapter, the one Jesus referred to, speaks directly of their captivity, and their "captive" condition, and their "deliverer," long before the nation goes off in captivity, in actuality.
"The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening of the eyes even to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones." -- Isaiah 61:1,2
We remember, we stated above, the "anointed" of Jehovah, was revealed to be, originally, Cyrus the Great. But, some time later. Israel needed another "deliverer," another "release," from spiritual "captivity." A more important release, in a spiritual sense. So Jesus Christ now, who had God's Spirit poured out upon him, at the Jordon River, must now become the "anointed" of Jehovah, that must carry or bring the newfound possibility of liberation, release from spiritual captivity, from the religious leaders of his day. Yes, "good news" of release from captivity, to Israel, from the Pharisees, and Sadduccees, the "high priest," and "sanhedrin," spiritual release from these "blind guides."
Israel needed "deliverance." Another "Cyrus," or in Hebrew ... another "KORESH", "Khoh'resh". Yes Jehovah's Son, now became that "anointed one," the Servant of Jehovah. Jesus Christ actually became the first "David Koresh," or "heir of David," that also, became a "Cyrus," or Liberator of the Jewish nation, spiritually. The "Greater Cyrus." You see, the name "Koresh," in Hebrew actually means "Cyrus," the liberator of Ancient Israel. The "Messenger of the Covenant." -- Isa. 42:1-6; Isaiah 44:28 & 45:1 (For Hebrew "Khoh'resh" or "Koresh," see footnote NWT Large Print Bible on both verses); Malachi 3:1,2.
Isaiah 41:27 speaks of his "KORESH" or "Cyrus"-like activity:
"There is one first, saying to Zion: Look! Here they are! and to Jerusalem I shall give a bringer of good news."
So, the "good news," is really about liberation, freedom from captivity, opening the eyes of the blind, giving sight to the spiritually blind, yes, release from "Babylon the Great." And Jesus brought this "good news," of liberation, to Israel.
Actually, Revelation 11:8 really, really shows us who Babylon the Great, is, in the eyes of God Almighty...yes it does.
Revelation 11:8 says,
"And their corpses [Two Witnesses] will be on the broad way of the GREAT CITY which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Eqypt, where their Lord was also impaled."
Jerusalem, the city where Jesus preached and was killed, is clearly where the "lord was impaled," is it not?
The headquarters of the Pharisees and religious leaders of Jesus' day. This is the same place the "Two Witnesses" are killed too, our day, as the bible says.
Jesus preached to God's People, and released them from captivity, from Babylon the Great, the spiritual oppression and tyranny, spiritual captivity of the Pharisees and religious leaders of Jesus' day...Babylon the Great of his time.
So, Jerusalem, the religious leaders of that same city, was the "Great City," yes, was indeed, spiritually speaking, symbolically speaking, "Babylon the Great" of Jesus' day.
Thus, CHRISTIANITY = SPIRITUAL "ISRAEL," or those who SUCCEEDED IN ESCAPING FROM "BABYLON THE GREAT."
Yes, the Christian movement itself, was BORN just outside of Jerusalem, "outside the camp" of Jerusalem, as Paul plainly said at Hebrews 13:13, 14
So, Jesus Christ, Preached in "Babylon the Great," and brought about a "deliverance," from Babylon the Great, in providing escape for natural Israel from Babylon the Great. -- Revelation 11:8
This is something Jehovah's Witnesses haven't given much thought to. The above sentence.
And when we can figure who Jesus really liberated...then they can understand, will be able to understand, clearly WHO BABYLON THE GREAT REALLY, REALLY IS TODAY...The WTS. They will understand the "good news" spoken to them, even...the "report." -- Isa. 53:1; John 12:38
A SPECIAL MESSAGE FOR "ISRAEL":
Revelation 18:4 says of "my people," God's People "Israel," Jehovah's Witnesses...this message,
"...Get out of her, my people [Israel], if you do not want to share with her inher sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."
MDS
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rem
Or, of course, there is the more prosaic explanation that Revelation is nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic trying to explain why he and his religion are being persecuted, all the while cryptically prognosticating future relief from the oppressive Roman government through supernatural means. Very similar in style to the book of Daniel (written during the oppressive reign that lead to the revolt of the Maccabees). It's called apocalyptic literature and it is quite common.
rem
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Tina
and even better yet...........Babylon the Grape w/ Peanut Butter Rules
Tina Keeping it SImp[le Class -
larc
Thank you rem,
I was going to write something similiar but held back. Recently, I re-read Revelation to re-check earlier conclusions. I think the author was on drugs when he wrote the book. The first three chapters are fairly normal. It reads like a performance appraisal of seven congregations, with descriptions of their strengths and weaknesses. Then, I think, the drugs kicked in, because the images seem very hallucinatory in origin. Another thing, the visions skip around in order. The good guys are saved, then persecuted, then saved, etc. It's a dream like back and forth kind of depiction. Like you, rem, I think he was attacking the Roman empire in a way that would prevent being hunted down and killed as a traitor to the empire.
For those who believe that Revelation has meaning for today, they must believe that the 144,000 are male, virgin Jews. The record is very clear on that point.
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Farkel
: Babylon the Grape
Hey! That's COPYRIGHTED material! Contact your lawyers and get out your pocketbook!
With regards to MDS, despite whatever bad things other people might say about him, he's definitely a windbag.
Farkel