The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm 103 Replies latest jw friends

rem

Mike,
I'm going off memory here, so I could be way out in left base, but I think I remember hearing of ancient cultures that did not use our decimal system, but instead used Octal, or something. Isn't the decimal system just from the ancient Middle East? I thought I remember reading that the number systems are pretty much arbitrary and different people came up with different numbering systems throughout the years.
I could be wrong, though - I don't have any references to back up my claim. Just a faint memory. Maybe I'll do some more research on that...
rem
JanH

Mike.
First impression: laughing.
Second impression: sadness.
Are you really serious about this numerology stunt, or are you pulling my leg?
- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein
aChristian

Optimist,
You wrote: Thank you SO MUCH for being honest and at least admitting that some of your more interesting observations are as speculative as those of many of what you would call "evolutionists".
I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I have never here or anywhere else criticized evolutionists for anything. I am fully convinced that God used evolution as His means of creation and that evolution probably occurred exactly as modern science tells us that it did.
: (what happened to 7?)
Though I have my own ideas about the probable symbolic significance of the Bible's use of numbers other than 4, such as 6, 7 and 12, I think only its use of the number 4 is relevant to this discussion. As I have said, I believe the Bible uses the numbers 4, 40 and 400 to direct our attention to Jesus Christ and I believe God built these same numbers into the sun, moon and stars to do the same thing. Thus, since this thread started out discussing Christ's ransom sacrifice and turned into a discussion of whether or not there is any real evidence that God exists, I believe discussing the Bible's use of the numbers 4, 40 and 400 is relevant to this discussion.
: I fail to see how finding life on another planet is a sign from Jesus.
Who said it is?
: With sensible people like you around ...
Thanks for calling me "sensible." However, I've got a feeling that after posting my thoughts on the Bible's use of the numbers 4, 40 and 400, and my belief that the God of the Bible put those same numbers in the sun, moon and stars to identify Himself as the Creator of the universe, more people will probably call me "crackpot" than "sensible."
Mike
JanH

Mike,
However, I've got a feeling that after posting my thoughts on the Bible's use of the numbers 4, 40 and 400, and my belief that the God of the Bible put those same numbers in the sun, moon and stars to identify Himself as the Creator of the universe, more people will probably call me "crackpot" than "sensible."

There is always a danger that pushing crackpot ideas could make people make that connection, yes.
You're an intelligent person. I don't think you need me to debunk those 'argument'. You already know, I think, how utterly nonsensical such arguments are.
- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein
aChristian

Jan,
You did such a good job of debunking Hugh Ross' "evidence" this is all I had left to throw at you. : )
Actually, however, many people I have presented this "evidence" to, agnostics included, have been very flustered by it. The idea that the Bible's most widely used set of symbolic numbers, 4, 40 and 400, actually "appear in the sky," "in the sun, moon and stars," has caused several Bible critics to do some serious head scratching. Call it coincidence or whatever else you want to, but the fact is that our sun's diameter, as listed in most reference works, is exactly 400 times the size of our moon's diameter, to the very mile. And astronomers tell us that, because the sun is also always about 400 times as far away from us as the moon, our planet is the only planet in our solar system from which someone standing on its surface can observe a total eclipse of the sun in which that planet's moon covers the sun's diameter so precisely that the sun's corona is left fully visible.
As I mentioned, astronomers have referred to this whole earth, sun, moon, 400, relationship as the greatest coincidence in our solar system. And I'm sure you will brush it off as nothing more than a coincidence. However, I believe it is strong evidence that our solar system was created by an intelligent Designer/Creator, and that that Designer/Creator is the God of the Bible.
Mike
ianao

Hey aChirstian:
You wrote: Thank you SO MUCH for being honest and at least admitting that some of your more interesting observations are as speculative as those of many of what you would call "evolutionists".
I think you have me mixed up with someone else. I have never here or anywhere else criticized evolutionists for anything. I am fully convinced that God used evolution as His means of creation and that evolution probably occurred exactly as modern science tells us that it did.
Not to overly "anal-ise" myself (pun intended) I was referring to your attitude toward this discussion. In your previous post to me on this thread you admitted that some would consider your ideas a bit "off-center" (to paraphrase). I think it's great that you can state your beliefs without demonizing/degrading others who disagree with your points of view. I think it's very mature of you, and this is why I call YOU "sensible" while your ideas I personally consider "off-center".
: I fail to see how finding life on another planet is a sign from Jesus.
Who said it is?
Sorry. I accused you of another's "crime". When you mentioned in the post above about the 400 billion galaxies being the "signs in the sun, moon and stars", I erroneously inferred that the you would consider the probability of past/present life on mars to be another "sign of the end", as others have said to me. My mistake.
rem

Mike,
However, because we have ten fingers, our Decimal (base 10) system is now and always has been our most popular numerical system. So, it only makes sense that if God was going to communicate with us numerically, He would do so using our most popular numerical system.
I have done a little checking and you are correct that the decimal system has been the most popular throughout time. From my quick scan on the Internet I found that the Babylonians used base 60 and the Mayans used base 20 with a sub base of 5. According to some web sites I looked at, it seems that the earliest number systems used base 5 (hand) and base 7.
Anyhow, I still don't think it would be very remarkable for god to use numbers that are only interesting in the Decimal system. It seems that it would be more mathematically corect if god used numbers that were significant in any number system, such as prime numbers or perfect numbers. This would seem to support some real intelligence, but all I see here are some coincidences that happen because of the arbitrarily chosen way we look at numbers. But then again, I've never been impressed with arguments based on numerology. You do seem to realize that an argument based on numerology will not be taken seriously by a rational thinker, so I'm not sure who you are trying to convince. Maybe yourself?
rem
aChristian

Rem,
You wrote: It seems that it would be more mathematically correct if God used numbers that were significant in any number system, such as prime numbers or perfect numbers.
It may seem that way to you but, for whatever reason, it certainly seems that the God of the Bible chose to use the numbers 4, 40 and 400 quite often in scripture. The scriptures themselves give abundant testimony to this fact. The fact that part of this same set of numbers, the number 400, instantly comes to mind of astronomers during every total eclipse of the sun was also not my idea. This fact was pointed out to me by several astronomers themselves as I read news stories they had written on a solar eclipse which occurred several years ago.
You speak disparagingly of "numerology," as well you should. Numerology, much like astrology, is pure superstition and has no demonstrable connection to reality. I do not think that my suggestion that the numbers 4, 40 and 400 may constitute the "signs in the sun, moon and stars" which Jesus spoke of can be fairly compared to mere "numerology." For, since these same numbers appear prominently both in the scriptures and in widely published news articles, whenever the moon fully and precisely covers the sun in the sky to create a total solar eclipse, my contentions have a strong and demonstrable connection to reality.
By the way, trying to determine what may be behind the Bible's abundant use of numbers such as 40 is nothing new for Christians. Neither is it an activity which only "crackpots" engage in. The Church father and philosopher Augustine, writing in about 390 AD made the following comments: "Ignorance of numbers, too, prevents us from understanding things that are set down in scripture in a figurative way. A candid mind, if I may so speak, cannot but be anxious, for example, to ascertain what is meant by the fact that Moses and Elijah, and our Lord Himself, all fasted for forty days."
Mike
JanH

The Church father and philosopher Augustine...

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell." -- Saint Augustine
- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein
aChristian

Jan,
You quoted Augustine as saying: "The good Christian should beware of mathematicians and all those who make empty prophecies."
Sounds like good advice to me. I am not a mathematician and I have made no prophecies, empty or otherwise. Augustine was here warning Christians to beware of those who would through complex mathematical formulas attempt to predict the time of Christ's return. The type of mathematical prophecy Augustine here referred to was the JW seven times = seven years = 2,520 days = 2,520 years which began in 607 BCE and will end with Christ's return in 1914 AD type. As I said, I have made no prophecies of any kind. I have only sought to demonstrate a clear connection between the God of the Bible and the God who designed our universe. Since they both apparently liked the same numbers a whole lot, we have good reason to suspect they may both be the same God.
Mike

The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

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