Are we wrong to attack the Elders? (page 3)

detective

Whether you believe it right or wrong to be critical of the elders, it is hardly "amoral" to be critical. I'm not sure how someone would feel that having a complaint equates to lacking morality?

Excellent point Detective: I saw also that part about "amoral" ... but I get the drift that martin was speaking in parody form to make a point ... but then my response to him I treat his remarks more seriously than parody ... you are quite right. Martin has a point that some are holding the Elders guilty of more deliberate and willful actions when they are largely deceived via a belief system. I think much of the commens directed against JW Elders is mor out of frustration with and hatred of the religion overall, and not so much because of specific individuals.

Sentinel

Personally, I feel that if you are going to bring some legal case against an individual person, and you have the necessary backing to do that, than perhaps the grievance is warranted. But, to simply "go after" elders does not accomplish anything. There are many good and genuience JW's serving as elders. This is probably a crisis point for them...a time of re-evaluation and perhaps change They need to understand that although we are not directly blaming them, we do blame the society for giving them the instructions to proceed the way they have, and we do hold them responsible for following through with those instructions without being strong enough to say "hey, this makes no sense, I won't do this anymore." If they have been enjoying a power trip, it's time to re-think what they are doing. We cannot effectively do this for them.

Bottom line is, as long as the WTBTS can continue to manipulate, they will. It's their members that give them the power to do that.

Like everyone else within the organization, these people (men) in higher positions need to be accountable for their association with an organization that cares so little for it's members. In this world, we are held accountable for having chosen a bad friend, someone who breaks the law or does other dispicable acts. If we kindly drive them to a street corner, and they say "wait a minute for me", and then return to get in the car, after having robbed someone, it's decision time! And, so, I do believe that the elders are being seen in this light. They are taking the blame because their "friend" has dictated a certain behavior, which they follow simply by not doing anything else to effectively stop it.

I have much empathy for anyone that is so misguided. They do bear a responsibility, but I don't think it accomplishes anything to lump them all into the same group and pound on them.

This is a time for extending great love and understanding to individuals. As the people come to realize they need to make a decision to get out, we will be here for them. I hold no animosity towards "elders" in general, even though, in my own situation, I was inappropriately dealt with. I've let that part of the past remain in the past.

We want to make this a place where an elder can come and "look at", and feel like if he does "come out", he will find some understanding and acceptance. I certainly don't want to be in the business of judging someone else. I don't believe any of us do.

Love and Light,

Sentinel/Karen

Pathofthorns

Sometimes those in that position feel a responsibility to remain even though they don't want to, not for pride but so as not to cause diffculty for their families. Wives are often invited to more social gatherings than if husbands were not elders, the elders kids play more together, etc. I can go on and on. We all know how the politics works in Kingdom halls. Some elders have very "JW" families and dont want them to be looked down upon if he loses his position

The reasons you describe for remaining an elder are essentially pride. If any man remained an elder while he supported or ignored unethical treatement of anyone in the flock or refused to resign if the body of elders or their decisions were corrupt I see no way to excuse that behavior. He is a disgrace and a dishonor to the office he is claiming to represent.

And if he is clinging to a position he cannot fully support so his wife can get invited to social gatherings, or so his kids can play with the others in the "in" club, well that reasoning is just disgusting. These sorts of men deserve to be knocked off their high horses and realize in the real world they are ordinaries.

Path

minimus

I know fine men who happen to be elders. I know many elders that are jerks. If a jerk elder gives you grief, you don't want to take it. If an elder that you like gives you counsel, you are more apt to accept it. If any elder KNOWS he is doing something wrong to another person and does it anyway because the organization tells him to, then, that's wrong. All of us that were elders and that are now on this board have had to make a decision as to whether we would listen to or ignore our consciences. If after a period of time, we ignore what we know is right or wrong, then WE ARE RESPONSIBLE. If we feel attacked, it may be more than justifiable.

MARTINLEYSHON

Jim

I read with earnest your response more so than any other, I have to say that you have expessed yourself exceptionally well. Thankyou for taking the time to give such an intelligent an overview.

Martin

kelsey007

The question should be: From where we sit today- as ex jw's- is it productive to attack the elders or nitpick the WT? Is it healthy?

Are we not seeking to limit freedom of choice for others? Our experiences with the WT lead us to feel a certain way about the org. Millions of others still choose the WT course of life. To call the elders or the WT evil is only an admission that most here were either evil are a part of evil for a good part of our lives.

Was it continual criticisms from ex jws that prompted you to leave the WT? Or was it personal experiences from within the WT that prompted your leave? Did not most of us here, as jw's, close our ears to apostates? Do you not remember how you and most all jw's viewed negative comments about the WT or the elders while you were Bro. or Sis. Loyal?

To me then it is not a question of "is it wrong"? To me it is a question of "is it right"? Is it productive? And does it really help us "get beyond" the experience"?

It seems to me that ex-jws more than another other ex-members of a religion remain consumed with the organization that they were at one time a part of. No other ex members seem so thrilled to see a group picked apart.

I have often compared the relationship to that of a recently divorced person. They claim they hate thier ex. They compare their ex to new relationships. They express glee when they feel vindicated that something they accused their ex of is exposed. They can't get their ex out of their minds. Bottom line they are still in love with thier ex and can't move on.... Always making statements of "Oh no, my ex is about to ruin someone elses life the way they did mine!" I must warn this person before they get involved with my ex-

hillary_step

Path,

This statement that you make is an uncharacteristically unreasonable one for you :

The reasons you describe for remaining an elder are essentially pride. If any man remained an elder while he supported or ignored unethical treatement of anyone in the flock or refused to resign if the body of elders or their decisions were corrupt I see no way to excuse that behavior. He is a disgrace and a dishonor to the office he is claiming to represent.

The body of elders is a form of government. Like politicians many choose to stay, often in very difficult and frustrating situations to try to work from within to bring change. Very few survive the course doing this, but I for one can understand why they would chose to do so. As an elder over the past couple of decades, I was in a position to help many persons who might otherwise have been irreparably damaged emotionally to avoid the extremes of action that may have been their lot in life. Many chose to follow a similar route. What you note as 'pride' and 'dishonor' could just as easily be described as selflessness from another vantage.

Best regards - HS

Edited by - hillary_step on 2 October 2002 12:22:37

Cygnus

Hillary,

Path said: "If any man remained an elder while he supported or ignored unethical treatement of anyone in the flock or refused to resign if the body of elders or their decisions were corrupt I see no way to excuse that behavior."

What you describe as working from within to make positive changes is totally different.

Edited to add:

Ack. The part about resigning might be what you alluded to. I am sure that Path would agree that there exist some elders who put up the bad in order to fight for the better good and that such is commendable.

Edited by - Cygnus on 2 October 2002 12:14:9

ballistic

I suppose there are good and bad elders just like there are good and bad in anything.

I know from experience that some elders have made a pre-determined decision prior to a judicial comittee as to whether to disfellowship. I also saw the complete lack of love and understanding that goes on in these trials. Now these are things which are not passed down to them from the governing body but are an un-avoidable by-product of using unskilled / untrained men in a difficult job.

Are we wrong to attack the Elders?