Was the catholic church an Enemy of scripture?

by gumby 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  gumby

  Navigator, Good question and absolutely true. History does not lie. Plain fact: "The Catholic Church....did not want laity with scripture. No more than the Dubs feel that, 'without a hierarchy of men to relate Gods word to the lower class followers'......they are their OWN will get nothing from Gods word. There NEEDS to be divine guidence from God thru men.

  Kenneson, Go to some more re-search and quit defending the Catholics. They are as wacked out now as they were back then......same old shit......just a different day.

  Yes they (the Catholics) have done much good for society. They have helped many people financially, with food and shelter, hospitals and so forth. As far as the Bible and God are concerned............what the hell is their problem? They are the true Church....just like the dubs
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  I just can't understand why the Catholics didn't want the "Rank-And-File" to have a copy of the Bible, can you?

  Can't you see that the Bible CLEARLY says that you are supposed to call humans "Father"?

  Matthew 23:5: But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments,
  Matthew 23:6: and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
  Matthew 23:7: the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men.
  Matthew 23:8: But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.
  Matthew 23:9: Call no man on the Earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven.
  Matthew 23:10: Neither be called masters, for One is your Master, the Christ.
  Matthew 23:11: But he who is greatest among you will be your servant.
  Matthew 23:12: Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

  Can't you see the Bible CLEARLY says that some people are NOT supposed to get Married?

  1st Timothy 4:1: But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the Faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
  1st Timothy 4:2: through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;
  1st Timothy 4:3: forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
  1st Timothy 4:4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanksgiving.
  1st Timothy 4:5: For it is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer.

  Can't you see that the Bible CLEARLY says that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is supposed to receive special honor?

  Matthew 12:46: While He was yet speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and His brothers stood outside, seeking to speak to Him.
  Matthew 12:47: One said to Him, "Behold, your mother and your brothers stand outside, seeking to speak to You."
  Matthew 12:48: But He answered him who spoke to Him, "Who is My mother? Who are My brothers?"
  Matthew 12:49: He stretched out His hand towards His Disciples, and said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers!
  Matthew 12:50: For whoever does the Will of My Father who is in Heaven, he is My brother, and sister, and mother."
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  gumby

  UD

  Now, your not being sarcastic are you?

  Actually not long ago when I believed in the Bible(still stuggling with this), I used to wonder how a Catholic could blatantly believe contrary to the things you stated. Mans interpretations of things can sway people to believe contrary......when it seems plain it is wrong...to others.

  Many don't care if their Church defies what appears to be simple truth.
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  Double Edge

  One 'positive' thing to say with regards to the scriptures and the early Catholic Church.... for the most part, they were the caretakers of the ancient scriptures - a lot of what we now have is because they were zelous in record keeping and maintaining libraries.
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  Yerusalyim

  Navigator,

  Point of Order here. Folks like Wycliffe were burned by civil authorities, not church authorities (though the church, indeed, was complicit). The vivil authorities interest in all this was that folks like Wycliffe and Tyndale were viewed as traitors and inciting revolution.

  What was the church afraid of with reference to scriptures being in the hands of the laity? Most commoners couldn't read, so most laymen weren't that interested. Still, the church was worried that without receiving scripture along with Tradition that heresy would creep in (it did) and that it would lose power (it did).
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  Salud

  When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered it was again hid from the rest of the world by the Catholic hierarchy. Only they were privy to it's findings. It wasnt until the last twenty years that these writing have been brought to light hence exposing Christianity as really not being all that it is cracked out to be.

  These findings allude to the fact that perhaps the story of Jesus is just that, a story, a myth. It is very possible that the Jews had adopted from the Pagan Mysteries (teachings) their own dying and resurrecting godman known as Jesus. If this is so, then the Jesus story is not a biography but a consciously crafted idea created by Jewish Gnostics. Hence you can see the Catholic religion reluctance not wanting this to be exposed.

  What about all the other gospels that were floating around for centuries and now not part of the Bible cannon? Or the other Revelations of Paul and Peter? What about the book of Laodiceans which was part of the Bible cannon until the 1500's and now it's gone? Basically the early church fathers decided what to consider part of the Bible and what not too with a few exceptions along the way. These were the same men who argued against and burned alive the pagans who believed the earth was round back around the year 200.

  Basically the Catholic church was created as a political tool as way to control people, and has it succeeded!
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  Double Edge

  When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered it was again hid from the rest of the world by the Catholic hierarchy. Only they were privy to it's findings. It wasnt until the last twenty years that these writing have been brought to light hence exposing Christianity as really not being all that it is cracked out to be.

  Say what? I don't think the Catholic Church has played any significant role in the Dead Sea Scrolls. For the most part, the State of Israel has had 'jurisdiction' over some of the scrolls ... in 1954 they were privately purchased in New York and given to the Israelis. The 'gossip' I've heard is 180 degrees from what you've stated. Supposedly it's the Jewish scholars that don't want the 'world' to see the scrolls because they would prove Christianity.
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  Kenneson

  Undisfellowshipped asks "Can't you see that the Bible clearly says that you are supposed to call humans "Father?"

  As a matter of fact, the literal interpretation of Matt. 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven" would forbid it. But it doesn't. In John 8:56 Jesus calls Abraham father. I would imagine he knew the sense of his meaning in Matt. See also Luke 16:24 and Rom. 4:11-12. In Matt. 19:19 Jesus also tells us to "Honor your father and mother." Unless the apostle Paul did not understand Matt. 23:9, he had no problem in calling himself spiritual father (1 Cor. 4:15) He also refers to Isaac as father in Rom. 9:10 In addressing the Jews in Jerusalem he calls them brothers and fathers (Acts 22:1) So Matt. 23:9 is not a blanket condemnation of calling all humans father as you imply. This verse is apparently applicable to Jesus' day. Would you say there were Catholic priests at this time? If not, then who was he referring to? Read it again. It was the Scribes and Pharisees.

  Can't you see the Bible clearly says that some people are not supposed to get married?

  1 Tim. 4:3 more clearly refers to groups who forbade marriage to all its members (including the Manichaens , Albigensians, Shakers, etc.) The majority of Catholics marry. No one forces a priest to become a priest. But he knows if he does then he is to remain celibate as Paul was (1 Cor. 6:8-9); if not he should get married. Priesthood is meant only for those whom Jesus said are "eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of the heavens. Let him that can make room for it make room for it." If a priest chooses to marry, he can get out of the priesthood and do so.

  Can't you see that the Bible clearly says that Mary, the mother of Jesus is supposed to receive special honor?

  It's a pity you don't see it for it is in the Bible. Luke 1:30 says: "So the angel said to her: "Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God..." Vs. 38: Then Mary said: "Look! Jehovah's slave girl! May it take place with me according to your declaration." Vs. 41: "...and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit, and she called out with a loud cry and said: 'Blessed are you among women..." Vs. 45:"Happy too is she that believed, because there will be a complete performance of those things spoken to her from Jehovah." Matt. 12:50 doesn't detract from Mary for she did the will of the Father.
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  Navigator

  Yerusalem

  I would argue that the church was more than complicit in the persecution of Wyecliffe and Tynedale. The fact that the executions were carried out by civil authority appears to be a mere technicality. It was Archbishop Courtenay, with the sanction of the King, who took such stern measures against the followers of Wyecliffe, causing many to be burned as heretics. Tynedale was arrested by Roman Catholic authorities after leaving the free City of Antwerp and later strangled and burned.

  Salud

  It is not the Catholic church which is keeping the dead sea scrolls from being published. It is the territorial claims of the scholars involved, each wanting to keep the others from having access.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Kenneson said:
  

  As a matter of fact, the literal interpretation of Matt. 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven" would forbid it. But it doesn't. In John 8:56 Jesus calls Abraham father. I would imagine he knew the sense of his meaning in Matt. See also Luke 16:24 and Rom. 4:11-12. In Matt. 19:19 Jesus also tells us to "Honor your father and mother." Unless the apostle Paul did not understand Matt. 23:9, he had no problem in calling himself spiritual father (1 Cor. 4:15) He also refers to Isaac as father in Rom. 9:10 In addressing the Jews in Jerusalem he calls them brothers and fathers (Acts 22:1) So Matt. 23:9 is not a blanket condemnation of calling all humans father as you imply. This verse is apparently applicable to Jesus' day. Would you say there were Catholic priests at this time? If not, then who was he referring to? Read it again. It was the Scribes and Pharisees.

  Okay, you are correct, you can definitely call your Dad "Father" and your Forefathers "Father".

  In Matthew 23:9, Jesus Christ was saying do not use "Father" as a Religious TITLE.

  Same thing with "Rabbi" and "Teacher". A religious person who teaches you something is a "Rabbi" or "Teacher", however you should not use that as a Religious TITLE.

  I know that there were no Catholics back then.

  I will try to comment on your other comments soon.

  I have a question, if we are supposed to give such high honor to Mary, is Mary mentioned in any Book of the Bible after the Gospels and Acts? If so, what does it say about her?