Comments from Ray Franz re Bill Bowen (page 12)

waiting

Hey IW,

Well, at least we're respectful, eh? I understand your position - I'm just not inclined to be total black/white about this.

I think Ray Franz is bigger than any of us combined. Period. Not because he's just so damned good, but because he was one of the first to be recognized big time, because he was a Big Dawg, because (to my understanding) he still handles his own company at his age - which is to me as impressive as anything else, btw, and because he seems to be a genuine, humble, highly intelligent, person.

I truthfully don't think any of us can harm him or his reputation by what Bill Bowen said - or anyone else said either. Franz's in a league of his own, imho. Can it still be discussed? Sure - like it hasn't already been turned inside out, shredded and everything else within the last couple weeks.

Besides that, Franz has explained his position, Bowen is out of town, the thread's still up - and we're just fussin' to be fussin'.....imho.

Personally - my daughter IS a silentlamb. I've worked with Barb Anderson on this over a year ago. I AM an incest survivor.........and I think the cause is important. Also personally, my opinion of Ray Franz has not been altered one iota by this or any other thread. I figure I'm about as open minded as the average - so I would guess Franz hasn't suffered by this.

In fact, attention has been brought to Franz and his books........and attention has been brought to the SilentLambs movement. Rather like politics, wouldn't you say? Keep the people interested.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 15 October 2002 18:2:52

IslandWoman

Waiting,

Thanks for the reply. Imo, it is "truth" being discussed.

No one should be above truth. Not even Bill Bowen! My nephew died faithful to the blood issue. He died! Yet, his family would not want the fight against the JW blood issue to be fought by lies! Especially lies spread against a fellow xJW!

Truth must be upheld by all, even xJWs like Bill Bowen who are among those fighting a good cause!

If Bill Bowen asked you, Waiting, to do something for the "cause" that you did not feel comfortable with and so you refused, would it be right for him to come here and accuse you of in effect supporting child abuse because you did not do what he wanted you to do?

Hell, No!

IW

Amazing

UPDATE: For additional comments from Ray Franz see: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38403&site=3&page=1

Edited by - Amazing on 16 October 2002 8:5:19

waiting

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the click over there - I found the following quote at the end of the first page - pretty well sums up my feelings too.

Thanks Jim. I completely trust you on this and believe this to be fact. And I also think you really went above the call of duty to talk to Mr. Franz about it all.
One thing I noted was this:
During our discussion, Ray brought up his phone call with Bill Bowen last night. He noted that he explained the same issues to Bill in the same way, trying his best to convey his intent on this issue. He sounded like the phone call went well. - jim
I am glad the call went well and this name calling has stopped. I know Bill is out for a while but I am glad that the both men did the right thing and talked about it - one on one - in a better way.
This is all about getting a policy changed to protect kids inside and out side the Borg and a little retribution for the victims so they have help and are not alone. A lot of you have done a lot of work on this and now, hopefully, this will move forward from here.
hawk

Edited by - waiting on 15 October 2002 21:56:52

waiting

Hey IW,

I'm sorry your nephew died because of WT policy - and the parents' choice in the matter. They were blinded, true .....but they gave their rights away to the WT. We all did and most of us paid a price for it. Again, sorry.

Imo, it is "truth" being discussed. - IW

That is your opinion........but it's not mine. Bill Bowen & Franz spoke by phone about this whole situation - see my above quote of Jim and Hawk. They handled the situation - like adults. Bowen, nor Franz, are perfect. Bad judgement call, which was corrected between them.

I agree with coming to a peace over this. It was a disagreement. It was a bad choice of words.....like all of us haven't done THAT before, eh? Bowen & Franz talk it out between them, Amazing brings us the report (doesn't that sound like it should be totally unnecessary?)

But Bill Bowen gets multiple threads thrown his way ------ what, about 20 pages total now?

Truth must be upheld by all, even xJWs like Bill Bowen who are among those fighting a good cause! - IW

Bullshit. Xjw's - all people - can do as they wish. No one upholds absolute truth, because truths change as we see them. Only science has absolute truth - and that's iffy. Bill's doing a great job - but I guarantee you that he, being a human being, lies now and again, even to himself.

We all do - including me. I told my mother-in-law the other day that her hair looked fine. It didn't - it looked awful.

I propose we agree to disagree. I think both men are - and have done - a marvelous job of helping other people.

waiting

Sam Beli

Thanks Waiting, for your kind remarks. I agree with your most recent post too. Hawk summed up well where this issue neeeds to be.

Sam

IslandWoman

Waiting,

I'm sorry your nephew died because of WT policy - and the parents' choice in the matter.

There was no "choice" Waiting. No choice at all.

Goodnight,

IW

Edited by - IslandWoman on 15 October 2002 22:46:43

waiting

IW,.

Perhaps not in their case. I don't know the details of your family. I do know the details of my family. I KNOW I made the choice to become a jw. I didn't leave - so therefore, I made the choice to keep my eyes closed and stay. When it was strongly *suggested* that I remain silent about the MS molesting my daughter - I made the choice of obeying. I didn't have to.......I did it. I could have left - but I didn't. That is called choice - limited by the scope of the choice - but nonetheless........we all have choices.

We were not children - we were adults. We weren't completely free - but we sure as hell weren't in chains & shackles. Why do we want JW's to come to the net - to read. They make a choice to come here. We all had to make a choice to leave or stay.

Do you know Sam Beli's account of how he nearly died from lack of blood? He chose to live. He paid dearly for that choice - but he made it.

We all paid - one way or another - for our choices.

Good nite to you also.

waiting

IslandWoman

Waiting,

We were not children - we were adults. We weren't completely free - but we sure as hell weren't in chains & shackles.

This is your assumption, if it is true then it holds true for the parents who lost children to the blood issue, it holds true for those who went to prison for the alternative service issue, it holds true for many JW issues, including the child abuse issue. Yes, as you pointed out a JW parent was free to report the abuse of their child to the police, for that matter certainly a teen was free to report present or past abuse to the police. Yes, in the real world this is the way it should be. We now claim to live in that "real" world. Well, in the "real" world:

Lies and Slander are considered wrong. Bill Bowen has slandered Ray Franz and he will never regain his full credibility until he explains himself. Hey, this is what we expect of the GB isn't it? Accountability?

But now Bill Bowen is above that? Why?

IW

waiting

What? So much for "Good Night."

Yes, I think we should try to live in the Real World - of imperfect people who try to take responsibility for their actions. Did you not read Amazing's post, then Hawk's response, then my yellow highlight (old jw habit) of those words? Bowen & Franz worked this out between themselves - like Adults in the Real World. It was *dutifully* reported here for our benefit. Obviously, that's not good enough for some of us - we demand more accountability.

We were not children - we were adults. We weren't completely free - but we sure as hell weren't in chains & shackles. - waiting

This is your assumption, - iw

LOL! Now I realize that was quite an assumption on my part, eh? I purposefully did not include children in the matter of choices, as our discussion centered around "parents" btw. I was assuming that we were acting like adults.

But this was also in my original post:

That is called choice - limited by the scope of the choice - but nonetheless........we all have choices - waiting

Every person who's left the WT made a choice to do so. Did they somehow just gain that choice? No. They somehow just acted upon that choice....finally. I'm not saying that we had a decent amount of freedom of choice. Many didn't - we belonged to a cult. But I am assuming that the vast majority of us had some freedoms - as many have written about here.

Obviously, if they didn't exercise a limited freedom of choice to leave, they wouldn't be writing here. Did they pay a price for exercising their individual freedom of choice? Yep.

The actual organization of SilentLambs is asking jw's & xjw's to exercise their freedom of choice - speak up. The victim will pay a price, but will gain some too. Nobody gets it for free from the WTBTS.

We were blinded, hoodwinked, abused, etc. But, at least for the adults with common reasoning power, we had some choices - we just chose to put away those troubling doubts - "wait on Jehovah." Paraphrasing AlanF, - at some point, something happens in the lives of some individual jw's which makes them stop and think without their blinders on.

Comments from Ray Franz re Bill Bowen

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