Comments from Ray Franz re Bill Bowen

by Amazing 148 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Valis

  From now on, if you're not a "survivor," please keep your criticisms curtailed. When we as "victims/survivors" are good and sick of Bowen, WE will be the ones to boot him out, not you "intellectualizers." And if you want to criticize, make suggestions or get more info, why not do as Bowen suggests and Write/Call/Email him personally?

  I'm not sure when anyone who posts here became immune to what you call "criticism". Nor am I sure when JW.com became your private palyground where you can post anything you want without at least getting some scepticism from others who post here also. So you think you are the only type of survivors here? I dare say not. When anyone else here makes asshole comments no one minds when they get ripped to shreds, but little Billy B gets to be immune from criticism about remarks that he made in a public forum??!!!! No way not ever should this happen. I'll tell you somethings else. there is no excuse for making excuses for him. He could have chosen to vent in a thousand other ways instead of attacking Ray. All that bullshit and trauma because he chose the wrong moment to spew a bunch of vitriol towards us. And now you've gone and insulted more of us w/the "intellectualizer" comment. How many of us have done the mailouts or helped the silentlambs in other ways like taping and copying the programs that have come out, or contacting newspaper people, or giving money, or dealing dierectly w/people that are victims of molestation? Do you know? Did you stop to think about that before posted that bullshit? I doubt it. Why should we email or talk to Bill privately when he comes out and says what he really thinks in public? Hmmm? BTW he never answered my questions which says a lot.

  Xenawarrior...the sword that Jehovah has sent among us nonetheless...

  By bashing Bill we hurt the cause of Silentlambs. By hurting the cause we hurt those still in need of our love, help and support.

  Dearest Sam, just don't forget where it came from...if you decide to bring a big stick to a fight be prepared to use it or eat it...one of those life lessons one learns when you are out of the borg long enough.

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  Sam Beli

  Danny said: "You think your taking the high ground on this one, don't you? Well I beg to differ."

  Differ away; oh thats right, you did!

  "Just because two people shake hands over a matter, does not in the least suggest the issues are resolved. [Seems to me that it is resolved. IMO, gracious folks would accept the outcome agreed upon by the two combatants] To tell you the truth, I cannot even imagine any other outcome, other than , where Ray Franz is one of the combatants. I think his demeanor, just from his writings alone, display a tone of reconciliation. Not to mention Amazing words as regards his conversation with Ray." Agreed, and that is the point! Ray has set a good example of reconciliation. It is unfortunate that those who seem to be upset by this issue apparently are not as open to forgiveness and forgetting as Ray seems to be.

  "So for you to come in here and bold face tell everyone to shut up about it, is imo counter productive. [Those are your words, not mine]. It is issues like these, that made jw life almost unbearable. People tip toeing around each other's foibles, backbiting and rumor mongering. There is far more damage done, by letting this type of behaviour pass. Smoldering resentment equals withdrawn support."

  IMHO, what you refer to as "unbearable" about JW life is what you are dragging up here. JWs are noted for criticism, backbiting and rumor mongering, just as you suggest. That is exactly what I am objecting to in this and similar threads.

  A refreshing attribute that I note among many "worldly" people is a graciousness that is lacking among JWs. The more educated, the less likely to criticize and besmirch others. I have come to admire folks who hesitate to be critical of others lest they sink to the same depths in which they accuse others of wallowing.

  You cannot legislate reactions. [Correct, never said I could] I don't care one iota what the cause is, how important you or anyone else thinks it is, there is no excuse for dragging someones name through the mud based on hearsay and inuendo. [ Agreed again] Bill did just that in the case of Ray Franz, he is suffering for doing so, and rightly so. [What is not right is for the Silentlambs to suffer because we are unwilling to accept the "peace" agreed to by the participants, Bill and Ray]

  Too Much Beer said: "Dearest Sam, just don't forget where it came from...if you decide to bring a big stick to a fight be prepared to use it or eat it...one of those life lessons one learns when you are out of the borg long enough."

  Surely, you are not threatening me, are you Valis? I do not care to get into a pissing contest with you over who has been an ex-JW longer, or who has learned the most since leaving the borg.

  I will not further this harangue by posting again to this thread. Victims of abuse, be it physical, sexual, the blood doctrine or the oppressive JW life in general deserve our full support. I wish we could concentrate our energies on those issues, letting these rather minor matters die a quick death.
• 

  Valis

  Sam, you mistake my intention by far....by big stick I mean if you choose heavy handed words that imply slander then you should be prepared to back them up. That's all....personally I could care less how long you've been out, but I certainly would ask you to think before you decide to get ugly with me, as I never meant any ill will in your direction. The idea is that if you create a problem then you should have the fortitude to fix it, especially when you involve others in the discourse.. Your assumption that Ray was ever a combatant in any of this is also off base. Please go back and show me where Mr. Franz wanted to be included in any of it...

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  Amazing

  Someone please show me where the Watchtower Society has stated, in cases of serious sin, the rule that requires "Two Witnesse" to the event or act! At best, One or Two Witnesses are Preferred! PERIOD ... but if there are NO witnesses, then other evidence can be presented to witnesses or the Elders. After I reviewed this, I rervisited and found that "IslandWoman" posted an excellent essay properly quoting the book, Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry which replaced the book, Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple-Making. (See IW's thread at: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=29405&site=3)

  I could not find the older book, Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple-Making in my things ... but if someone can review their Watchtower CD ROM and post the chapter from it called "Safeguarding the Cleaness of the Congregation," then please do, for I would like to see the context ... but in all fairness, I believe that somehow, the Two Witness rule that has been pounded on is simply not suported by either of these books. If the older Organization" book does not support it, then I have to ask why we have had the discussions about this rule that seems to be so undocumented?

  So far the only place I can find any mention of "One or Two Witnesses" has to do with Matthew 18 steps to resolve personal differences and some serious sins like fraud or slander between two people ... but nothing is stated that demands that the Elders in Judicial Committee hearings must have two witnesses.

  Also, many are confused about the meaning of "witnesses" believing this requires a human eye-witness ... in matters of law, even in Bible times, evidence of any kind also serves as a "Witness" ... in modern law, a photograph, a tape recording, DNA, blood stains, semen all serve as "Evidence" ... and thus as a "Witness" ... nonetheless, the issue I am getting at is where the Society has demanded this in Judicial cases, or cases involving molestation victims ...

  PS: I am aware that BOE letters may be behind the "Two Witness" rule ... but I will address those later.

  Thanks to whomever can post it for me.

  Edited by - Amazing on 13 October 2002 0:22:9
• 

  teejay

  I wish we could concentrate our energies on those issues, letting these rather minor matters die a quick death.

  So the outright character assassination of an innocent individual is a "minor matter" in Sam Beli's eyes, so long as the perpetrator is the spearhead for a worthy cause. Hmmm...

  I think there are some here that disagree with you, Sam Beli. The individual is as important as ANY cause.
• 

  Englishman

  A few days back I reccommended that we give BB room to reflect, so'd maybe he would calm down and put matters right. I envisaged him saying something like:

  Hi everyone. I am so sorry for shooting my mouth off recently, particularly to respected people such as Ray Franz and Hillary Step. I have felt under a lot of pressure lately, and I over reacted to several situations. I know that I can come across sometimes as being bombastic and ego seeking, but this is just my secular training taking over. I seem to have made the mistake of behaving like a company director berating his employees in my enthusiasm to get things done.

  I hope that you can all overlook my foolishness and still support Silent Lambs, I still feel that I am the best person to do this, especially now that I am a wiser and somewhat chastened man.

  Many thanks.

  Something along those lines would be great, but that's just IMHO.

  Englishman.
• 

  Sam Beli

  Valis, you said: "I certainly would ask you to think before you decide to get ugly with me, as I never meant any ill will in your direction.Your assumption that Ray was ever a combatant in any of this is also off base. Please go back and show me where Mr. Franz wanted to be included in any of it...

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer"

  Dear DO, please accept my apology since I misunderstood your intention. I am pleased that you meant no ill will. I mean none in return. I hope that we can remain friends.

  Regarding Mr. Franzs wanting

  to be a combatant: it is true, Im sure, that he had no desire to be involved in this battle; however, he became involved, first by Bills statement and secondly by Amazings phone call, and yet again by Bills phone call (or was it the other way around I forget who called Ray first in recent days). So, you are correct, Ray did not start this particular fight and did not want to be involved; I never meant to imply that he did. What was said some time ago between Bill and Ray, we will probably never know. We only know what they are saying now.

  My plea was for the fighting to stop. Ray is a big boy and no amount of criticism directed toward him will have much effect, IMO. Those who have come to Rays rescue here attest to that conclusion.

  Teejay said: "So the outright character assassination of an innocent individual is a "minor matter" in Sam Beli's eyes, so long as the perpetrator is the spearhead for a worthy cause. Hmmm...

  I think there are some here that disagree with you, Sam Beli. The individual is as important as ANY cause."

  The much bigger issue, IMO, is the abuse that the lambs have suffered. I am talking about the Lambs, not Bill. Their molestation cries out for justice. Ray can take care of himself. Any injury that he may appear to suffer on this board is, IMO, minor compared to the rape and molestation suffered by the Silent Lambs. IMO, the board got priorities reversed for a time. If one of our daughters, sisters, nieces, etc was raped and molested, wed be outraged. Rays reputation, though important, seems a rather minor matter when compared to the injury suffered by the Lambs, IMO.

  Edited by - Sam Beli on 15 October 2002 9:35:22
• 

  waiting

  I think that sums up my feelings about this whole matter. Thanks, Sam - sometimes you're as eloquent as your picture.

  If one of our daughters, sisters, nieces, etc was raped and molested, wed be outraged.

  Rays reputation, though important, seems a rather minor matter when compared to the injury suffered by the Lambs, IMO.
• 

  larc

  The Silent Lambs issue is of major importance. I just don't want to see anyone's reputation damaged in this cruisade, neither Ray's or Bill's. I think any cercern expressed regarding Bill's methods is not to snipe at him, and I hope he doesn't take it that way. Of course, their is the small minority who will castigate someone out of pure maliciousness, but they are the rare misfit. I have seen this done to several prominent leaders in our common cause.
• 

  IslandWoman

  Waiting,

  I think that sums up my feelings about this whole matter. Thanks, Sam - sometimes you're as eloquent as your picture.

  If one of our daughters, sisters, nieces, etc was raped and molested, wed be outraged.

  Rays reputation, though important, seems a rather minor matter when compared to the injury suffered by the Lambs, IMO.

  I respectfully disagree.

  This idea that to let someone's reputation go by the wayside for the sake of a cause smacks of what the JWs do. How many of us were maligned or accused by someone in the hall, then were shunned because that was the best thing for their cause?

  I went into a state of shock when reading Bill Bowen's accusations against Ray Franz. It was really just too much to see among ourselves a replay of the tactics used by the GB and others in the Org. It was not too far from what happened in 1980, where the GB publicly announced Ray Franz' leaving of the Governing Body as well as Bethel in the same KM where they asserted there had been apostates discovered in Bethel. The casting of stones against Ray Franz and the others was allowed to florish in the rumor mills, with no proof provided.

  The statement above could also be written this way: "The reputation of one publisher, though important, seems a rather minor matter when compared to the reputaion of the Organization." This was what we had before, I had hoped we had moved on trom that. Maybe not.

  Truth must always come first. I thought that was what Silentlambs was all about? But now as we castigate the Watchtower for covering over truth we ourselves feel it desirable to allow an untruth to stand for the sake of our cause? Who have we become?

  IW

  Edited by - IslandWoman on 15 October 2002 15:43:23