Amazing thread!
Need best info on why Jesus could never have chosen org in 1918?
by GodZoo 36 Replies latest watchtower bible
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GodZoo
Thank you all very much for all the great responses, info, links and suggestions! I will go through each and gather the data I need for this fellow.
It's true though that I'm not out to convert or de-convert anyone including him but but I'm more then happy to simply drop these facts into his brain and let him do what he wills with it.
It's also very therapeutic for me too to be able to disarm and hamstring these false ideas that we were all fed on a ladle.
Much appreciated folks :)
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nibbled
Share this with him, get him thinking on his own...
The "appointment" is based off the date 1914 which is based off a calculation (below).
The calculation is wrong and actually doesn't end on 1914.
CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 yearsThe WT above applies the 2,520 years of 360 days to 365 day calendar.
What's the difference?
2,520 * 360 = 907,200 whereas 2,520 * 365.24219 = 920,410.3188
Those extra 5.24219 days each year add up to a whooping difference of 13,210 days or 36 years!
Can we just ignore 36 years? I hope not, I'm only 35 years old!
Taking the "lowest common denominator" between a biblical year and a calendar year—a day is just a day either way—you can start to apply the prophecy to a calendar.
Do that (including the changes made to our calendar in between) and you land at the date May 14, 1948.
Imagine that!—a prophecy about the nation of Israel starts and ends with... the nation of Israel!
So yeah something big happened at the end of that proper calculation of days based on scriptures, but it wasn't what we were taught... the "end of the gentile times" apparently applies to literal Israel, not "spiritual Israel". Yeah, imagine that.
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. — Isaiah 66:8
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Splash
Or we could apply the very latest WT thinking to this account of Daniel and the tree dream, which is that unless there is a clear indication to do so, we do not look for types and antitypes.
There is no clear indication that this dream meant anything other than Nebuchadnezzar being humbled for 7 years, which happened during Daniels lifetime. Any meaning beyond this is pure conjecture.
Also thrown into the mix is that the 7 'times' are said to begin in 607 BCE. This start date is wrong.
Finally, the sign of WW2 is meant to prove this date but in reality we know that WW2 began months before this prophetic date arrives.Add this speculative prophecy to an incorrect start date, and you have the foundation for the core JW belief of 1914.
JW's are told to look at the sign in Mt 24 and particularly note that no individual sign means anything special, only when they all occur together. The same is true for the reasoning about 7 times and 1914.
If just one part was proved to be wrong then you could maybe explain it away saying "well the rest is true, we just need to understand that one part better".
When you see that every component part of that interpretation is wrong, it is a sign that you should not believe it. -
notsurewheretogo
Read the chapter in Don Cameron's book Captives to a Concept dedicated to why Jesus would never choose them in 1919 based on what they were teaching back then.
Simple, logically and concise....and undeniable.
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Phizzy
“A direct investigation of the publications of the Watch Tower organization in the years from 1914 to 1919 reveals none of the prudent discretion that causes a man to ‘keep his lips in check’. It would be an insult to Christ Jesus to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it was teaching, uniquely and distinctively, as of 1919.” (Raymond Franz, In Search of Christian Freedom, page 145)
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nibbled
Splash, I agree with you. The WT uses Daniel's 7 times, but my understanding is not based on appropriating another chapter of Daniel—it's based on Leviticus 26 where God warned:
"If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve."
The descriptions in prophecy align to what takes place:
- Ezekiel 4:4-6 = 430 years as the "Servitude of the Nation" (Loss of Israel's independence) Fulfilled on May 14,1948.
- Daniel 9:2 = 70 years as the "Desolation of Jerusalem" (Destruction of Jerusalem and loss of Jewish Rule in Jerusalem) 587 B.C. Fulfilled on June 7,1967
They served the 70 years of the 430 years of punishment, but were not found repentant. The remaining balance of years — the remaining 360 years is then hit by the 7 X of clearly spelled out in Leviticus 26.
360 * 7x punishment = 2,520 = Same number the WT uses but derived in an entirely different way—from following the story in scripture with the prophecies. The WT uses Daniel's 7 times, and doesn't use consistent means of measurement trying to make 360 = 365.25 = 1914 (instead of 1948).
All this detail is of interest to me as I am still Christian and believe.
I personally couldn't believe that the prophecy about the Servitude of the Nation would come true to the date the nation of Israel came into existence on the planet again. Suddenly I woke up to having been taught all these "spiritual" fulfillments applied to "spiritual Israel" being poppycock while REAL and LITERAL fulfillment was being missed.
Sir Isaac Newton who was keenly interested in Daniel and bible prophecy once said,
"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."
The WT seems to put out more atheists than any other religion. My hope is that this brother runs from 1914 and the WT, but not from faith and belief.
For me, finding out 1914 was supposed to be 1948 if calculated correctly and then finding out that was the actual birth of the nation of Israel once again on planet Earth, well, it was mindblowing. It's the first time literal interpretation became possible again.
Kids can grasp 360 != 365.
Crush the date 1914 and everything crumbles.
Much easier to get someone to do a math problem (or reason through it) than to read Don's Captive's if they are 'loyal'.