Need advice on a comeback to my wife: when she is in cult mode she says faith without works is dead.

by goingthruthemotions 40 Replies latest jw experiences

  • emilynghiem
    emilynghiem

    There is no need to argue.

    1. agree with her that having faith means you are naturally compelled to do the works God calls you to do in Christ. This is part of saving grace and sharing it with others. It follows NATURALLY, there should be no guilt or fear attached. 

    if she means "work through your salvation with fear and trembling" that means humility and fear of God as in respect. 

    2. if there is negativity and conditions going on,

    that means FORGIVENESS is needed. it's not just arguing how the Bible is worded or what it means.

    This "unforgiveness" and "fear" is coming from something else.

    So just focus and pray on what memory or conflict, what fear of what group,

    is causing rejection division and "unforgiveness"

    pray for Christ Jesus to remove that stumbling block and set

    both you and your wife free from it. Ask her to pray with you

    in Christ Jesus to remove the fear and unforgiveness so you can agree on God's truth.

    keep praying together in Christ. Whenever you find an emotional barrier or conflict,

    agree with your wife to stop and pray together for forgiveness and removal.

    After it is gone, you can receive God's wisdom what to say and do to be in agreement.


  • bafh
    bafh

    The issue is not that works and faith are unrelated - they are. I think it is what most rational people would say is having integrity - practice what you preach, etc. We all know people who tout different values but who are inauthentic or even hippocritical because their actions do not match their words. 

    I think the issue is that JWs have a narrow definition of "works" and that they rank them on a completely made up and unofficial scale of spirituality. So while we have a wide variety of works demonstrated by Jesus - JWs only count a fraction of those as being worthy of replication. [i.e preaching and helping the poor in the congregation if they are "worthy"] If one chooses to express their spirituality by serving a larger population of poor or needy in some way (i.e Mother Theresa) it does not count because it is not "preaching" their current doctrine.  Of course none of us are able to heal in the way Christ did - but there is healing that we can each contribute to others that demonstrates love on a much more fundamental level than even preaching - listening, encouraging, supporting, etc. 

    What I find interesting is that Jesus wove the meeting of the crowd's physical needs with their spiritual needs and he prioritized them: physical, then spiritual. In modern times, we may be familiar with Mazlow's heirarchy of needs. On the bottom are physical needs: sleep, food, safety, etc. Only when these fundamental needs are met are people able to think about the "higher" needs of spirituality.

    As an organization, JWs biggest weakness is their black and white thinking and their limited acceptance of what "counts". Of course there is also all of the unwritten judgement that people do as they rate each other on how spiritual they are - and all of it - as far as i have experienced - is how well a person fits into the social hierarchy.  And how well one fits into that social structure is based on what the congregation can observe - and it encourages a works for show type of atmosphere, a need to be visible. 

    I happen to be a successful single business woman who is open to marriage but not pining for a man.  I am completely self supporting; live alone; have time and money to travel and am educated with a wide variety of interests. If I ever lost my mind and went back for some reason, there is no way I would pioneer.  There isn't a slot for me in the congregation.

    When I left, I was having panic attacks every time I walked into the building. Now that I only attend for weddings, funerals and the Memorial - I am MUCH happier, and able to be myself. I actually feel like a more spiritual person because I am able to express my reflection of love, acceptance, support, etc in ways that are appropriate to situations I find myself in.  These for the most part are not observable to anyone else, and would not count in any way within the congregation.      

    ok, that was a long rant. I guess my short answer is to agree with your wife, and then ask  what her definition of "works" is. And what types of things count. If she can broaden that definition, it will be helpful because it will open the way for her to be more open minded on other issues.                                           











  • jhine
    jhine

    Hi , I finally found the verse that I was (mis ) quoting . Ephesians 2 : 10 . In the Good News Bible it is -

    " God has made us what we are , and in our union with Christ Jesus He has created us for a life of good deeds , which He has already prepared for us to do " 

    Which seems to me to explain the "faith without works " verse as meaning that true faith leads us to want to do the Father's will which is the good works prepared for us beforehand . So faith comes first and as pointed out in many passages we are saved by faith , then from faith comes the good works that we are meant to be doing . I do not think that the comments made by various writers about faith and works are contradictory and that this verse is an attempt to compact the different ways that Paul etc talk about faith and works into one comprehensive package . 

    It is worth noting that the Early Church did not engage in door knocking , a reference to house to house ministry refers to the way in which Christians had to meet in their homes for practical purposes and the Apostles  would have preached in private homes to a crowd of people . 

                        Jan 

  • davidmitchell
    davidmitchell

    It is in James where this statement occurs (which appears to contradict Paul's teachings about faith, e.g., Rom 3:28)

    'So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead' (James 2:17).

    It is obvious by what the author says that 'works' are deeds that are related to kind behaviour and not specifically with a 'religious' association (e.g., attending meetings, witnessing, etc) . This is made clear in say, 2:15-16 and certainly in 1:27: 'Visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world'. Also to oppose or at least ignore wealth and capitalism (2:2-6).

    If all Bible-believers followed what James says, the world would be a happier place. Instead of all the religious preaching they would have to care for the afflicted (and not only their own, but those of different faiths and groups - Matt 5:46-47).

    Just as note: Witnesses I have spoken to say that the demand that they dress up in smart suits (like insurance salesmen) for meetings is what Jehovah wants as they are his representatives and yet James 2:2-4 surely does not support this.



  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    Came across this verse the other day. Thought it might be useful:

    Now to the man who works, his pay is not counted as an undeserved kindness but as something owed to him. 5 On the other hand, to the man who does not work but puts faith in the One who declares the ungodly one righteous, his faith is counted as righteousness.
    - Romans 4:4,5

  • jhine
    jhine

    Amen , davidmitchell , and most groups within " Christendom " do follow that teaching . Hence clinics , schools and orphanages built all over the world . Here in England food banks are being run by many churches .

           Jan


  • Logos
    Logos

    Can we take credit for a gift God has given us?

    Ephesians 2:

    "8 you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting. 10 We are God’s handiwork and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God determined in advance for us to walk in them."

    If we therefor say that our good deeds increase our faith that's a bit like saying the fruit of a tree causes the roots to grow.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    when we have gotten in fight she will come up with the words. "faith without works is dead"

    ......................Image result for bible

    Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 NOT BY WORKS,SO NO ONE CAN BOAST.
  • hopeofglory
    hopeofglory
    We cannot ever do enough works to find favour we are under the grace of God otherwise we would not experience his grace. The works its referring to is the works within eahc of us the fruit of the spirit that will become manifest, love,joy,peace,compassion,mercy, etc etc
  • NeverKnew
    NeverKnew

    I don't know if this will help you. I've never been a JW. All I can offer is the frame from which I've come.

    James was an apostle to the Jews. (Galatians 2:9) James was speaking to Jews. (James 1:2) He was using terms Jews, who had spent thousands of years in a works-based salvation, would understand. In order to gain acceptance you had to DO something. They were trying to impose that on Gentiles (Galations 1). But Paul argued adamantly against the Gentile's participation in this set of rules. (Acts 15)

    Glad I'm a Gentile.

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