I'm unaware of any scriptures in the bible that establish that there was no law in heaven before physical creation.
What would heaven have been like BEFORE Satan defied God? Everything would have been good. Everything would have been like the Garden of Eden BEFORE Satan corrupted it. There would be no one displaying things like being selfish, violent, defiant, stubborn, lying, greedy etc, etc etc...The fruitage of God's spirit would have been the only thing existing in heaven from the first spirit being given life, up until the point of Satanic rebellion. Surely, anyone can reason, that before Satan OPPOSED God there was NO opposition, NO defiance and NO rebellion...NO spiritual qualities that would be adverse to God's qualities. Right?
So, BEFORE Satan rebelled, all there was in heaven was each creation of His outwardly displaying only the good of God. If you can see that, then you can see quite clearly what the deeper implication of this passage can bring to light:
Gal 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Was there BAD before Satan started it? NO. Proof? For instance, the Bible calls Satan the "father of the lie", so obviously, before Satan uttered the first one, there was no out of control lying. So, Satan fathered that as one of HIS BABIES. Since at one time lying never existed, God would not have had a Law for something that didn't even exist. But what did exist, was all of the GOOD things that Paul reveals for us as what comes from God, and as such, would be the very conditions of heaven BEFORE Satan flipped a wiggy.
And against such things THERE WAS NO LAW.
I can reason on more, but there obviously is no point in doing so if you cannot see my reasoning above. As the above is quite elemental.
But then again, I'm no bible scholar.
I believe "bible scholar" is an oxymoron.
Even if the bible does teach this (which I doubt) my argument does not depend on this point.
Then why even bring it up and waste my time and yours?
Even if it were true that the first laws ever came through the physical world (which you have no way of knowing), it still doesn't explain why a physical world was necessary to create law.
You never asked for an explaination for why law would have to come through another dimension now did you? Instead, you have opted to claim my not knowing one way or the other. That's a great way to understand another's belief. My belief is very understandable if one could put aside their cranky obstinance.
God could have created laws (if they didn't already exist) in the spiritual realm and saved us all of the suffering we have in the physical realm today.
No He couldn't. Why don't you just sit and think of some of the implications that have been put on the table by Satan. Like how about this one: Since Satan had to be guilty of MURDER in order to be executed JUSTIFIABLY (life for life), Satan had to murder one who was God, since Satan has claimed that he is god, and the true God has GIVEN that to him (god of this system of things), how could the true God (the Son) die in order for Satan to be guilty of MURDER since the form of God is not an entity that can die?
Create another dimension, the physical, surrender being God, and become a MORTAL MAN that COULD be killed, and BE KILLED by what Satan had created.
It is an very interesting juxtaposition. Satan goes ALL THE WAY UP to being "God", Jesus goes ALL THE WAY DOWN into death.
Which is why this LAW of physics was created: For every action (Satan going all the way up) there is an equal an opposite reaction (Jesus going all the way down), in image and likeness of the TRUE spiritual reality that happened in creation, all because of Satan.
There is no more justice in creating a physical universe as a prerequisite to law than just creating law in the first place.
Well sport, there is GOOD reason why it could not be created in heaven. Which is why it WASN'T created in heaven. And just to show YOU that God never intentioned LAW to be the WAY in heaven or on earth, is the very reason why WE have been released from the LAW. The LAW wasn't meant for US, it was meant for the one who it was going to be hung on after WE had been released from it.
Matt 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
So Christ's fulfillment of the Law (and the Prophets) didn't ABOLISH the LAW, but HIS fulfillment of LAW released us from it. If the Law was ONLY meant for man, and we have been totally released from it, THEN WHY DOESN'T CHRIST ABOLISH IT if it has served it's full purpose? Becasue it HADN'T. The LAW has it's MAIN purpose yet to be fully ACCOMPLISHED, and that is appplying the LAW that WE have been released from, and FULLY APPLYING it to Satan the Devil, WITH NO MERCY.
According to you, the laws that were created in the physical universe are somehow binding on the spiritual world. Why?
Because Christ created it in heaven, and applied it to man. Then, HE (Who WAS God in heaven like Father) became a 100% man, OBEYED THE LAW as a LESSER being than the God he was formally in heaven, and FULLFILLED IT. And because He fullfilled it PERFECTLY in front of the Devil's children, the scribes and the Pharisee's, THE TEACHERS OF THE LAW, it infurated them and they were going to KILL him. MURDER...
How is this different than just creating laws in the spiritual world in the first place? It isn't.
It is. It is VERY different. WAAAAAAYYYYY different. One who was TRULY God surrendereed that, became LESS than an angel...AND COULD OBEY LAW. And because of obeying THAT LAW perfectly in front of MEN WITHOUT self control, Satan's CREATION, these very ones KILL JESUS CHRIST. What Satan had created, more or less KILLED a piece of God, the Son.
Tell me, when Jesus gets back to heaven after fulfilling the LAW and DYING for it, what do you think he has to say to Satan?
Bastille Day.
Just because you say trust is competent and responsible doesn't make it so.
Maybe because you are so full of piss for God, maybe you put yourself on dangerous ground?
I can trust that a stray dog won't bite me, but that wouldn't be very responsible of me. Basically what you are saying is that god was naive and inexperienced when he created the spiritual realm. You can't squirm your way out of that one.
Indeed, God was a BABE as to badness before Satan had His BAD BABY.
1 Cor 14:20
20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
God just advised us to be the way He was before Satan.
Here let me clarify it:
God was ignorant to what Satan was going to do.
God was a baby in regard to evil.
God was cluless to Satan's forth coming dirty deeds.
NOT ANY MORE.
I don't have to squirm my way out of it, I agree with it 100%. God creating omniscience within Himself after Satan, gave Him all the experience with Bad He needed. He fore-saw how bad the evil that Satan created would get. So, HE WOULD PUT AN END TO IT, ON HIS TERMS, THE WAY HE WANTS TO, and maybe just maybe, He has a load of yellow waiting for those that wish yellow on Him.
Edited by - pomegranate on 31 October 2002 17:5:15
