How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  DJS

  Ditto to all comments. I wish I could say I'm surprised or shocked. Several years before my exit, a young, very attractive, sister, confessed to me that she had committed 'fornication" (I hate that word) a couple of years before with a 'wordily' man. Oral sex only. Anyway, the protocol was to have at least 2 elders to hear such confessions, but she hit me with this unexpectedly.

  Like a good elder Dub, I brought it before the BOE. In their favor, because the sister had been regular (and by dub standards a model) and the incident had happened a few years before and there was no indication that it had been a practice, blah blah blah, they assigned another, older, elder to speak with her, along with me. Not a committee.

  I was shocked when this elder (who was known in the circuit for being obsessed with sex) asked the young sister probing questions about the who/what/where/how/why/when. Stuff none of us needed to know.

  Thankfully we took no action towards her other than this discussion, but this was another one of the bricks in my dub/theist wall that was removed because of his unnecessary probing. I'm sure she felt violated.
• 

  Tornintwo

  With regard to identifying the elders, the victim Karen Morgan works with Cedars, maybe you could email her for the names, although it was years ago so they may have died

  
  http://jwsurvey.org/contact-us
• 

  cha ching

  When I was young, after reading the WT about "Did you scream" and how you would die at Armageddon if you didn't, I was really terrified of what might happen to me.

  I thought of all these scenarios, and how I could escape them alive..... Like, what if a rapist had a knife to my throat, I could feel the blade cutting into my skin... Am I really going to scream?

  I thought "If Rahab can lie to the men trying to find the spies," and she is a hero, 'I can lie to the rapist, "sure, this is fun, I won't tell"' and then turn him into the police so he can't hurt another person in their life!

  The WTBTS is an evil organization! Many parents do not know the thought loops their children must go through when they hear this type of thing, "YOU MUST SCREAM" , at the meetings.
• 

  Island Man

  I think I know why the elders asked that question - not that I'm seeking to justify or excuse them for asking it.

  Do you recall Watchtower's "rape-scream" policy? When a sister says he has been raped, the elders ask her if she screamed. If she didn't scream then she puts herself in danger of being accused of having complicit sex and disfellowshipped for fornication. Watchtower foolishly wants rape victims to resist the attacker as much as possible even if that puts the victim in danger of being severely injured (in other physical ways) or killed by an armed attacker.

  So the elders question about how far apart her legs were, was probably prompted by this "rape-scream"/"resist-the-attacker" mindset. They were probably reasoning - foolishly - that her level of complicity in the act is directly proportional to how wide her legs were open. Wide open legs would be seen by them as evidence that she was inviting the act, while closed or minimally opened legs would be taken by them as evidence that she was doing all she could to resist the attack.

  But it is all foolish. It would be like the police, questioning a bank teller as to how quickly she handed over the money to an armed robber; or whether she handed it over with both hands or just one hand, to determine if she was complicit in the robbery, and is to be charged as an accomplice.
• 

  blondie

  I think it is cheap form of porn for some elders. Now I wonder about the elders who don't ask the questions but sit and watch/listen to this go on? My husband sat in on one JC where the elder chairing starting asking such questions after they had decided to df this sister. My husband could not see why since the decision had already been made. So he interrupted and had the sister wait in another room and told the other 2 elders that this was sexual abuse in his opinion, that he would not participate in it, and would remove himself from the committee. The most junior elder was uncomfortable but was afraid to say anything against but nothing for it. The chair backed off then. That elder, I know he got his jollies touching the sisters, of accidently, of course. The 2nd time he did it to me, I told him I would break his fingers, as I bent one back. Since he had conviently made sure there were not eyewitnesses to his feely-meely, only one eye-witness to my act.
• 

  DJS

  Blondie,

  Ditto. Plus the power.
• 

  stan livedeath

  a friend of mine--an ex jw----ive known her since she was a baby. shes late 40's now.

  she was d/f'd in her late teens for sexual misconduct. apparently the elders made her describe--in graphic detail---her private behaviour.

  this cannot be right--surely?

  are there any written instructions from the watchtower society as to how these elders conduct these hearings--? what questions are required ? does any one know ?

  _________________________________________________________________ in fact---her ( late ) parents were very good friends of mine--back in the late 60's--when i was a dub. in another thread i mentioned some ex jw women with various illnesses--well--this poor lady has more than her fare share. she only "came out" about no longer being a jw in recent years after her mum died. she had now been shunned by her natural sisters--just when she needs them the most.

  her dad--long gone--would turn in his grave if he had known how the cult would tear his family apart.
• 

  JWdaughter

  Blondie rocks!
• 

  fiddler

  I would have to say that learning about this kind of perverted questioning during a JC was another factor in my waking up. It was a time concerning my half sister who was 17 at the time. She was in the JC because of 'fornicating' with her boyfriend. I had her brought out of her state and to my home in Oregon to try and help her. The boyfriend was the least of her problems. She'd suffered years of abuse (emotional and physical) from her mother. So she described the questions that she was asked; what position, how many times, did she enjoy it, yada yada. At first I didn't know it was procedure to ask a teenage girl this kind of thing...thought it was just a one off in one congregation. I was so incensed about it I told MY local elders about what perverts my poor sister had had to endure. Yes, I got her set up in my congregation which I thought were so much more loving and kind. You should have seen the blank look I got when I was going on about it! Hmm.....

  Fast forward a few years to my own JC. Yes I had committed the act of adultery and I turned mysel in less than 24 hours after the deed. I was a mess and yes, I felt terrible that I had done it. One of the same elders that had heard my rant earlier was there. Another elder started asking for details and I just looked at him and said 'sex is sex' I'd come there confessing my guilt. I understood the definition of adultery. Details of a personal nature were not necessary. That one elder doubted my sincerity because of what I said and wanted to DF me but since I had come forward on my own and was obviously saddened the other two elders opted for private reproof. Yes, there were some good elders in my hall but It was that whole JC experience and the attitude of a certain elder after that really caused the blinders to come off my eyes. I really saw them all and the organization and everthing for what they were...just men. There was nothing spirit directed or special about them. I began to realize that it WAS procedure to ask those questions. I was done with the whole JW thing at that point and I walked out of the hall vowing to never set foot in one again and I haven't.

  Although I would rather the religion just came to an end completely I know that at best some reforms would be at least a step in the right direction. Making sure a sister was present in the room while a young girl or ANY woman was being questioned like that would be one change I would like to see. The obsession with sex that permeates this religion is telling...I think perverted men have been in positions of power there from the beginning. It's woven into the fabric of the religion.
• 

  problemaddict 2

  The trick is this. The ridiculous and abusive act that these men asked her to somehow reinact (I'm not even sure how to explain what they did), can be brushed off by JW's as so absurd that it was just these guys doing something wrong. This is EXACTLY the way it plays out.

  Rogue elder

  isolated incident

  nothing in print suggests that so it was wrong

  they weren't following the direction of the slave

  etc...

  So while it is shocking and yet.....not shocking that it occured because of how we perceive the culture and the elders role within that culture....people there will no doubt bristle when they hear it, but they will brush it aside as not representative of the majority of judicial meetings. They are of course technically accurate.