by jst2laws 51 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
As much as they blast major religions, especialy catholics, isn't it interesting that they now have something in common with them......
" Back then we didn't have all these sophisticated birth control methods. Like pulling out."- Jack Warden explains how he came to be Norm MacDonalds father in "Dirty Work".
Very good points everyone;
my annoyance with all this is that witnesses tend to make the elders and the WT system their first port of call.
If they were burgled or attacked in their homes, they'd call the police ; but I feel only because the crime was committed by someone who WAS'NT a witness.
As soon as a crime is committed by a fellow witness- their first thought is to call an elder; why?
Were you ever told specifically to do that ?
I was'nt- but it was implied in talks ... you knew.
I think that they want to deal with it internally to avoid the 'reproach on Jehovah's name' senario and to sort things out with your brother amicably.
This concealing of crimes from the outside world is like another control tactic;akin to abuse within a family when a child subconciously 'knows' not to tell or risk exposure because this will destroy the outward appearance of the family and their good name.And they have to reside within that family.It is not until the child leaves that they feel they can speak openly- but by then, the damage has been done and the problem has'nt been dealt with.
People should'nt take such serious problems to the elders ; but they do.How will this ever change ?
Perhaps if concealers of crimes( such as abuse) in the WT were punishable by law the fear of bringing shame on the org. would make them report it as obviously, at present, the abuse of a child is.nt considered a serious enough problem to report...
The Watch tower is just like one big family alright...an abusive family of secrecy and concealment.
Thanks for your thoughts Brummie,
Failure to report allegations of crime to criminal investigators is a product of the 2 witness law so maybe that law is the real issue. Challenge that law and you challenge their very basis of hiding any criminal activity.
In the sense that the R&F will not report until they are authorized to do so you are right. Good point. The average witnesses will go first to the elders to be told what to do, especially if the accused molester is a JW brother. That is when they are eventually told there is nothing that can be done without "two witnesses". "Just leave it in Jehovah's hands".
That is why the WT is reprehensible in teaching or implying that they can handle this problem theocratically. What the WT needs to do, and eventually will be required to do, is tell these accusers that this is a crime and they need to go to the authorities to investigate the validity of the accusation. Just report it as the law requires of parents and friends who become aware. In this regard the WT has more of a problem than the Catholic Church, because the Catholics are not known to present themselves as the first source of resolution of this crime, as the WT has.
Who is responsible for this confusion as to who to go to with this crime? The WT society. Again the issue is not "two witnesses" but who to report to. The WT has created this problem and is therefore responsible for the consequences. And the consequences are enormous.
This is a primary problem in my opinion. There is another problem. Having screwed this up for decades thinking they were above 'Caesar's laws', how do they react when it was brought to their attention that their policy is terribly flawed, at least since 1992?
1 Deny it.
2 Cover it up.
3 Sensor any in the know who expose it. (by disfellowshipping)
4 Ruthlessly attack and discredit the victims in court who dare to hold them liable.
This is to me worse than their (1)'two witness' rule or (2) their teaching that they can handle this crime internally. Number (1) the 'two witness rule', is a product of their personal application of a scriptural principle within the scope of religion. Number (2) that they are above the law, is a reflection of their self-righteous assumption that they are the only PEOPLE OF GOD, and above the human judicial system.
What is worse is sensoring and attacking those who expose the flaws. This is a reflection of the evil philosophy, "for the sake of the nation, this man must die". They are now into SELF PRESERVATION at all costs. How many more people will they hurt before this ends. They are not concerned with the victims. They are only concerned with their reputation of 'holiness' and the cost of failed litigation.
I am open to adjusting my perspective but his is how I see it at this point. The 'two witness' rule is low on the list of bad motives and policies.
What do you think?
Jst2laws
Js2laws,
They are only concerned with their reputation of 'holiness' and the cost of failed litigation.
I am open to adjusting my perspective but his is how I see it at this point. The 'two witness' rule is low on the list of bad motives and policies.
What about all the victims that were turned away because of the two-witness rule? Sure they were worried about litigation, but nonetheless, the scriptural principle, two-witness rule, had to be applied. As a former elder, I am personally familiar that this was the instruction from headquarters.
No doubt this instruction damaged and hurt many victims as well as broke the law.
Lady Lee,
the crime of sexual abuse of a child is different from the crime of murder for the WTS simply because it is easier to cover up - well easier than hiding dead bodies of murder victims.
Good point. Gruesomely true.
"If we don't talk about it then no one will know that JWs suffer from these problems. And that is, I think, the crux of the problem
The cover up. 'Don't dare to expose our flaws'. 'We are the faithful and discreet slave'.
The WTS law of "not bringing shame on the congregation" is greater than the laws to report or protect children/victims. It is this "not bringing shame on the congregation" law that sends victims and their families to the elders in the first place
Yes. The congregation's image is most important. The R&F truly belief they must comply and follow the elders advise (they are appointed by Holy Spirit after all). The result is: Do whatever it takes to hide this. Destroy whoever it takes to protect the image.
egads I sound like a women's libber
If it is right who cares who you sound like. Lady Lee, I tried to find something I could disagree with for the sake of discussion. I failed. Thanks for the comments. I hope everyone looks over your post twice. Jst2laws
Christ - should I not leave the 99 and go and help the one ?
GB - should we risk the 99 just to go and help one ?
It's about faith in God. Without it, they will work to acquire it, but have even less - it requires faith to leave all you have for the good of that one, but they won't sacrifice possession for the good Spirit.
And so around it goes - they say that they're waiting on jehovah - but really they're not - they've read a text of jehovah rules, and think they've got jehovah where they want him.
paduan
Edited by - a paduan on 3 November 2002 19:41:1
Jst2laws discussion can carry on by expanding the ideas and throwing some new ones into the mix
I like the point you made about the FDS. The authority the WTS gives itself by claiming to be God's only earthly representative raises them above all worldly authority. By claiming that they alone know what is right they do indeed have all wisdom all knowledge all power to decide such difficult matters as child sexual abuse. They set the ball rolling. In fact they created the ball. JR Brown sits there and says they don't tell people not to go to the police but they do worse. They tell people that they alone know what is best even over the authorities that God himself puts in place to govern us. R&F are trapped in a nether land. They get no real help from the elders who are "spirit" chosen for their positions and the door is closed for them to go elsewhere because well whoi else can offer them such wonderful godly assistance. In the end the only one who is helped is the abuser - towards his new victim. A pedophile paradise indeed.
Termite 35, Where have you been?
If they were burgled or attacked in their homes, they'd call the police ; but I feel only because the crime was committed by someone who WAS'NT a witness.As soon as a crime is committed by a fellow witness- their first thought is to call an elder
Very will said. It seems we all are on the same page here.
"The Watch tower is just like one big family alright...an abusive family of secrecy and concealment"
Termite, that is so well said it scares me. I would email you if I could. Salud
What about all the victims that were turned away because of the two-witness rule?
Yes, elders turned these victims away on the bases of lacking two witnesses. This was the mind set of the elders as they were trained to focus on "theocratic procedure" rather than letting the authorities handle crimes. As I have stated above, if the mind set of the elders was to turn allegations of crime over the investigative agencies of the govt., the internal religious policy of 'two witnesses' would not have been a factor. It boils down to who to report to first. The WT is most reprehensible for failing to teach the R&F and the elders to go straight to the police with crime instead of to the elders. Say hi to the wife, Salud. Jst2laws
Jst2laws,
Greetings to you and your family also...
if the mind set of the elders was to turn allegations of crime over the investigative agencies of the govt., the internal religious policy of 'two witnesses' would not have been a factor.
I agree, but the key word here is 'if'. Because they do not turn it over to the proper authorities the two-witness rule has been and will continue to be a factor.
The problem is also that these elders have been 'trained' to believe that this two-witness policy applies in cases of child abuse, and most elders totally believe it. The elders, are not concerned first with legal issue as they are with the scriptural procedure that has been handed down to them. So who is responsible for this training?
Just my thought.
Salud
I tried to find something I could disagree with for the sake of discussion
Lol..!
I'm probably doing the same thing for the sake of discussion because I can see your post have excellent points but for the sake of discussion:
"Having screwed this up for decades thinking they were above 'Caesar's laws', how do they react when it was brought to their attention that their policy is terribly flawed, at least since 1992?
1 Deny it. (Deny the flaws of the 2 witness rule)
2 Cover it up. (Cover up the flaws of the 2 witness rule, because they must keep it at all costs to excuse themselves)
3 Sensor any in the know who expose it. (by disfellowshipping) (Sensor the expose of the flaws of the 2 witness rule)
4 Ruthlessly attack and discredit the victims in court who dare to hold them liable. (because they didnt have 2 witnesses)
This is to me worse than their (1)'two witness' rule "
But is not all of this the 2 witness rule in action, all of the above exsist because of the WT extreme interpretation of 2 witness rule? Without that rule there wouldn't be any excuse for the suffering. So maybe it is the real issue?
This is to me worse than their (1)'two witness' rule or (2) their teaching that they can handle this crime internally. Number (1) the 'two witness rule', is a product of their personal application of a scriptural principle within the scope of religion. Number (2) that they are above the law, is a reflection of their self-righteous assumption that they are the only PEOPLE OF GOD, and above the human judicial system.
Their personal application of the bibles mention of the 2 witness rule deludes them into thinking they are above Caesar's law which doesnt require 2 witnesses ...again its their 2 witness rule thats the issue
L...I have to agree that the "2-witness rule" is not THE problem although I think it is part of the problem.
Seems to me that their pathetic interpretation of the 2 witness law IS the problem and all the other problems are the consequences of it. So maybe it is the real issue?
Its their gross mis-interpretation of the 2 witness rule thats the real problem, the mis-interpretation is enforced on all these criminal cases but it still leaves that rule at the center of the issue.
OK thats just playing devils advocate and my reasoning is most likely flawed...lol, its getting late.
There are so many good points in your posts but for editing purposes I'll go with this:
Again the issue is not "two witnesses" but who to report to.
Excellent point! grrrr they breed confusion at every opportunity!
Brummie
