The Two Witness Rule is NOT THE ISSUE (page 4)

eisenstein

R&F?

i'm eisenstein...didn't say einstein.

I had nearly given up on Jehovahs-Witnesses.com after having been on another thread. However, I feel that the first post here represents really good thinking and most of the replies are sane and devoid of the personal ego that I have noted earlier. The author of this thread deserves real credit.

There is, of course, something else very wrong with the Witness system. The judicial system, which operates behind closed doors, is nothing but a system of two-bit inquisitions. There is no basis for such a system biblically. It was simply dreamed up after the Moyle trial. Until it is done away with root and branch, the evils of Watch Tower thinking will continue.

I agree fully that what has been done to wives and women generally in the congregations is terrible. I have seen too much myself and have witnessed young girls being questioned about their sexual behavior. In itself, that is almost a form of psychological rape. Imagine a sixteen- year-old girl being asked by men old enough to be her grandfathers, "how far did he penetrate you?" The damage is often quite terrible.

Jim Penton

A Paduan

Leviticus 18:6: "'None of you shall approach anyone who are his close relatives, to uncover their nakedness: I am Yahweh.

But it's not to uncover nakedness, it's for another's protection, and I'll just add - elders visits, inquiries, back room judicial hearings - all an approach on one's relatives.

Edited by - a paduan on 3 November 2002 21:20:57

jst2laws

Hello Path,

"Exactly what is the congregation supposed to do with molesters who have served their sentences? Is not Christianity itself and the concept of "forgiveness" and the supposed ability to "change" people's personalities at the root of much of this problem in Christian religions?"

I am very much in favor of forgiveness. Forgiveness is to me a primary aspect of spirituality. But I am a firm believer in separation of church and state. The Talaban combined church and state as the Catholic Church did during the 'dark ages'. I acknowledge the WT theology of "Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to God." I wish they took it as seriously as I do.

"My personal hope honestly is the end of the WT or if that is not reasonable then for it to be a religion without teeth.

Personally, I feel all religion should be "without teeth" as you suggest. Spirituality is a personal matter and religion only gets in the way. It divides people and demands conformity to its concepts rather than encouraging personal growth and spirituality. Worse than that it often promotes the flawed concept that 'God is with us' and they thereby justify atrocities against humankind. The WT is just a another player in that game.

Are we interested in protecting children in every sense of the word or are we hoping this issue is an effective means to collapse the house of cards?

Personally, I'm not into collapsing 'the house of cards'. There are more people who would be harmed by that than those that would be helped. There is an enormous number of people who would be adrift and suicidal if they lost faith in everything too quickly. While I do not see the need in any religion I do not see the need in bringing down one while tolerating all others. The best thing we could hope for, as you say, is to take the "teeth" out of a harsh and and intolerant religious organization. Take care Path, Jst2laws

Lady Lee

Dr. Penton

Thank you for your thoughts. As a victim of judicial committee investigations both as a child victim of abuse and as an abused elder's wife I would have to go a bit further in the description. In my experience it WAS a psychological rape and my heart and soul was left bleeding each time.

I agreed the back room tactics do not belong in the Christian org. There is nothing scriptual about it. It too is an attempt to protect the guilty at the expense of the innocent

I'm glad you haven't given up on JWD. It has it's moments but then the gems come along like this discussion. Ignore the rest and look for the gems.

Lady Lee

J2L I have to agree about the damage that would be done to some if the WTS collapsed. I knew how I felt when I lost my entire belief system. It is devastating. People like my mother who have sacrificed their entire lives and families for the org would not cope very well losing it.

I think too the loss would push many to believe in it even more and try to resurrect it.

A Paduan

As a jw, would you go against what you discerned in heart or conscience, to give judgement over to what the wt stated - substantiating a charge based on a single witness ?

The wt doesn't understand what it is about being a witness.

jst2laws

Hello Jim,

The author of this thread deserves real credit.

Keep tuned. I will disappoint you eventually.

There is, of course, something else very wrong with the Witness system. The judicial system, which operates behind closed doors, is nothing but a system of two-bit inquisitions.

Thanks for pointing out one more serious flaw in the "theocratic arrangement".

It is truly good to have you contribute here. As Farkel says, this is more of a social club then a discussion board but we like to discuss real issues once in a while. Perhaps the issue of abuse of women can be considered some day.

Jst2laws

Brummie

jst..Keep tuned. I will disappoint you eventually.

hahahaha, you deserve even more credit for your humility!

Its been a great thread, Jst2 and Ladylee have made it clear that the issue is not the 2 witness law, though a very disgusting misinterpretation, its just another cover for a vicious wolf.

Ladylee credit to you too for the following observation:

Take away the 2 witness law and the problem remains:

They are not to take their brother to court

They are not to bring reproach on ~~Jehovah's~~ WTS's name.
They go hoping for justice
They go so that the child will not have to testify in court (they don't realize the world is a lot gentler and kinder to child victims than inept elders)
They go because they think that if the child has to talk to someone they know about what happened it is easier than talking to a stranger.
They go because they are out-right told there is no justice/wisdom in the world (who else would we go to comes to mind here)

Applause

Brummie

Pathofthorns

J2L..

Thanks for your reply. I also wanted to say that I think your comments in your original post to this thread were very much spot on with what I observed at Vicki Boer's trial. It was clear the elders handling the matter did not grasp the severity of the crime or even that it was a crime and they actively sought ways to get around personally reporting this matter to the authorities.

I personally feel the main difficulty with regard to the two witness rule arrises with regard to the whole "repressed memories" issue. I would have to admit that I would be hardpressed if I was an elder to personally take action in such instances and would have to leave that matter with the individual to personally pursue with the police.

The JW judicial process is horribly flawed and unfair and traumatic for anyone facing their inquisitions. They really need to take a closer look at their investigative and judicial procedures. I think they are one of the primary reasons why people decide they no longer wish to be involved with JW's after going through such a horrible process. The two witness rule is what has saved alot of people from facing these committees and is probably the only thing good about the whole process.

The whole child molestation issue seems to be one that presents difficulties at every turn. Even handing matters over to the authorities is not a magic solution and is one that still presents challenges and disappointments.

I think the most important thing with regard to this whole issue is the dialogue and exposure that there in fact was a problem in the first place. For JW's to know and accept that this is a very real problem that exists among them as it exists elsewhere is quite an accomplishment. The awareness of the issue and the talk surrounding it is imo the greatest step in creating an atmosphere where these people are not tolerated and where they cannot hide easily. I think the present climate would be that elders and the Society would be more inclined to simply hand these matters over to the authorities than to have to deal with it and all the potential difficulties themselves. But maybe I am just being naieve.

Path

The Two Witness Rule is NOT THE ISSUE

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