A Case for Healthy Patriotism

by Amazing 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Whether raised JWs or we joined at some point in life, we learned to regard patriotism as wrong, part of the Devil's system of things. If we became JWs between the mid-1960s and mid-1970s, we had additional social influence to regard patriotism as wrong, as being duped by the elite politicians who use citizens for cannon fodder in wars, or other nationalistic pursuits. The Hippie movement was partly a catalyst that spawned many anti-war, hence, anti-USA Government, hence anti-patriotism movement in this country. As a nation, we were nearly torn apart and were on the brink of civil war for many years.

    The Reagan years brought back some national dignity, and then during the Persian-Gulf War, we saw a strong resurgence of patriotism, though not without some anti-war protests. All this eventually dissipated, but the generalized influence has lingered and resurfaced again as we are contemplating military action against the nation of Iraq.

    It often seems that when JWs become Ex-JWs, they carry with them this sense of anti-patriotism and chide other Ex-JWs who take up a measure of patriotism as trading one false religion for another but still holding onto the need for some kind of organization. I am specifically thinking of Proplog2 recent post on this topic.

    I find that this tendency toward all-or-nothing totalistic thinking by some former JWs to be far more disturbing. This thinking that any form of loyalty to a culture, a system, a nation, or even a religion must be wrong, simply because the Watchtower organization proved to be inadequate, perhaps a fraud, mixed with some felonious activity that this makes any level of loyalty wrong because of them this strikes me as irrational and unfair.

    Patriotism can be dangerous, as most anything if done in excess. Certainly, Nazi Germany proved how dangerous blind loyalty and extreme patriotism can become. Clearly, those who resisted, objected, and fought the Nazi extremism were good and wise people who saw the difference between healthy patriotism vs blind loyalty to a national cult.

    Patriotism can more often be healthy, if carried on with balance and maturity. Patriotism is not about insisting and demanding that our respective nations are better than everyone else, but rather that our sense of community, of national family has some healthy features. I can as easily say that my wife is the best wife on earth. Is she really? Do not other loving husbands equally think of their caring wives as the best on earth? Does this type of patriotism toward ones intimate partner in life mean that we are sucked into something unhealthy? I dont think so.

    I love the United States of America. She is a good nation. She is not perfect, and some level of corruption and stupidity have pushed us to make serious mistakes. I see no real distinction between our government and our people because we the people place these leaders in their positions by our voting. We are not always right and if things get out of hand we replace those leaders who go beyond reason. We have been fortunate to have good leaders most of the time, and those not so good have at least not been that bad.

    Other nations are equally as good as the USA. I highly respect and admire and love Canada, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Finland (god love the Finns) and many other good nations. They too are not perfect, but I expect the citizens in those countries to love their nations in a patriotic sense to love their country more than they love the USA. It is their national and cultural identity and were I to move to Canada or the UK, etc and make that my home, then they would command my patriotism.

    Patriotism has its limits. It can become blind and dangerous as noted above. We need to have a nation where we can criticize our leaders, even in times of crisis or war. Freedom, balance, fairness, and love for our country demand that we listen to all sides and have the freedom to express a contrary view. To be anything else places the entire concept of genuine freedom into question. But by being critical, we need NOT develop anti-patriotism or a sense of national hatred. Why? Is that really healthy? Using the family as an example, I may criticize my wife or she may criticize me, but that does not mean that we have to hate one another; ... rather, the fact that we can talk and criticize and work out differences means that our love and relationship is good and will likely grow and remain strong.

    I am an American patriot. I tend to vote Republican or Libertarian. I likewise respect and appreciate Liberals who tend to vote Democratic of Socialistic. I think the USA is in better shape than I have seen it in a long time, since the early 1960s anyway, and yes we still have problems, and yes, we could be wrong in wanting to disarm Iraq, as are now the rest of the world wrong to vote with us ... but simply because I was once a JW and had misguided loyalty for a religious organization does not mean that by returning to basic patriotism I am now a duped blind loyalist who is sucked into the vortex of being ruled by some conspiratorial Illuminati or right-winged big business conspiracy, or some left-wing pinko communists.

    R ather ... t he fact that I, you, any of us can choose to be involved or not, to decide on one side or the other and act to effect change in our citizen management of our nation and governing, is in my mind, a very healthy thing ... patriotism does not mean blind credulity or loyalty no matter what. Instead, it means loving our fellow human in the context or our identity as a nation and culture and act in its best interests.

    Patriotism will never lead me to stand by quietly should my nation and its leaders start engaging in morally outrageous behavior al la Nazi style, for if that were to happen, then I would gladly join the underground resistance, move to another country and work to liberate the USA from such evil because of patriotism, because of a sense of love and national identity for the concepts, the values, the rights that we as humans anywhere on earth should and must enjoy.

    Currently, in the last ten years, no one has made a reasonable case to prove that the USA is not a good nation, acting for good most of the time and that any bad acts are of sufficient nature to seek to punish or over throw our leaders. Yes, the CIA has blown up some stuff, or caused drugs to be spread into the So. California area and we have supported some bad regimes, though most of the time they became bad after we helped and trusted them ... shame on us for doing these things and where it has been seriously wrong, we need a national accounting and court trials of the guilty ... yet, aside from folly here and there on the average we have acted well as a nation along side other good nations like the UK, etc.

    And clearly, the entire world sides with us enough since 9/11 and with the recent UN unanimous vote ... such that it becomes all too clear that we are not acting in an evil way, but seeking to do things correctly and in the best interests of all nations ... and yes, President Bush did and does talk of war with Iraq this is good political tactics to get the rest of the world off the dime and doing something constructive ... yet, it does not make him a war-monger. So far, bombs have not fallen on Iraq and if they do, it will be done as surgically as possible to remove Saddam Hussein much like removing a gang leader and disarming the gang ... saving the village for the good and decent people of Iraq.

    So, as we debate the merits of any national or international issue, it seems unfair to me to start attacking the sense of patriotism some have, but rather, stick to the merits of the issue, debate the points of relevance, and don't try to sneak in undermining attacks on someone simply because they happen to love their country, whatever country that may be. Jim Whitney

    Edited by - Amazing on 10 November 2002 23:17:37

  • TR
    TR
    I am an American patriot. I tend to vote Republican or Libertarian.

    I love ya, man!

    However, I'm a littled miffed at the ease in which Canadian customs let people enter the country then go to the U.S.

    TR

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Jim

    Thanks for a well-worded and generally balanced presentation. I too am put off by the rabid anti-American sentiment that seems to well up just for the purpose of defiance. Also as another thread pointed out, the Bible says that the governments are God's servants (and not a fictional faithful and discreet slave "class"), and so to be rabidly anti-government as we were taught as JW's is unbalanced.

    Patriotism can be a double-edged sword. What about people in Iraq or North Korea who are loyal to their country and would fight for it, perhaps being unaware of the evil nature of their regimes? If that kind of a life is all they know, then patriotism, even an unhealthy patriotism, would be the normal course.

    And how can we trust our (American) government when they say they have information that Iraq has or is developing and plans to use nuclear or other advanced weaponry? Can someone be "the loyal opposition" and still be patriotic? (I'd like to believe the government, and I hope they are telling us the truth. But of course we cannot absolutely know until it's too late, so I guess some measure of trust is needed.)

    Were the American protestors against the VietNam war in the 1960's patriotic? Would you say no simply because they opposed the official war effort? Or would we say yes because no war was ever declared and America perhaps could have been better served had they avoided the Vietnam conflict?

    That's just my bunch of disjointed thoughts and concerns, all tied in to the idea of patriotism.

  • Iwasyoungonce
    Iwasyoungonce

    Amazing,

    Great post.

    Thank you for it.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    AMAZING,I dont want to see another 911 happen here in the states.Remember Pearl Harbor, my dad was there, it was horrible.I appreciate the time and forethought that you put into your posts.THANKS. DAKOTA RED,Thanks too, excellent response to prolog.The USA has lost its men and woman in helping other nations.We have devoted blood sweat and tears for many suffering people on this planet.No need for me to continue. Blueblades (P.S.) I am an eyewitness to the destruction of the twin towers ,with debris falling on me.I dont ever want to feel that again.I cant speak anymore about it.The lost of human lives has reached out and touched me.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Gopher: While my brother was serving in the military during the Viet Nam war, I was on trial at the Santa Rosa, CA Selective Service office for refusal to join the military ... declaring myself to be a conscious objector. I won my case while still a Roman Catholic and never served in the military ... I felt that the Viet nam war was wrong, and we should get out. My brother who had some spy knowledge at the time also said the war was wrong ... as a nation we were wrong, and the college riots and Hippie movement were not signs of anti-USA or anti-patriotism as much as a sign of social conscious ... today, were I a young man again, I would join the military ... but were this 1969 again and we were still in the thick of Viet Nam, I would still make the same decision to become an objector. Yet, I would still see myself as patriotic.

    Hi TR: Hey, I also like Rush Limbaugh ... radical left-winged liberals tend to get rocks up their ass over Rush because they cannot emotionally handle his style of humor and parody ... Rush is not always right, but he is always funny and often on target.

    Thanks Iwasyoungonce: By the way, I was young once too ... still am ... I am 51 going on 5.

  • LB
    LB

    I'm no patriot and would never fight for my country. I don't trust the government any more than I could throw it. I don't think we are nearly as free as we think we are.

    But

    I can't stand stupid verbal attacks on our country. It's childish and foolish. I resent any who post such attacks.

    I would defend, with guns, my home, family and friends. I would defend anyone I preceive to be under attack. I would not hesitate to take a life to save a life. I just don't trust our government when it tells us who to hate. I do not like the patriotism leading our young men and women onto foreign soil.

    I was a patriot for many years. Being a JW did not change my mind. Experience did.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Jim:

    Patriotism is defending your country when someone attacks you, Nationalism is going out and attacking another country for causes that are most of the time baseless.

    I have not considered that particualr distinction before ... and certainly I would never support agressive attacks without cause ... Viet Nam is an example, and one where I faced trial rather than go to war.

    I will defend this country and those around me from any evil that comes our way but I will not be used by this country to fight for ideals and principles that support Big Business, and that is what basically all outside wars are.

    I am not convinced that ALL big business is bad ... rather, like some religions are bad, some businesses are bad ... and only bad as far as they have bad leaders ... business, especially big business is a great check against abusive government ... I don't believe that all or even most wars are about business or religion ... I like to look at each war on a case by case basis ... the civil war was about several issues in addition to slavery ... WWII was about nationalism and racism and empire building rather than big business or religion per se ... the Korean war was about ideology ... the Persian Gulf War was about protecting a small nation, but more to do with the world's oilsupply, which affects big business but also basic human needs ... I am a believer that historical events are more complex and demand more of us to understand them.

    My country right or wrong is not the battle cry you'll hear from me!

    Me either.

    I'd have to be pretty convinced that attacking other countries is the right thing to do and so far in my life time I haven't seen any war that made me happy to join in.

    WWII is a well justified conflict. The Persian Gulf War is, given that Saddam Hussein was poised and planned to move into Saudia Arabia and control the world's oil supply ... he had to be stopped. I believe that the USA-UK and other supporting nations did the right thing in taking down the Taliban in Afghanistan. And while I agree with the concept of disarming Iraq for all the obvious reasons ... I am not yet settled on how this should be done.

    Would I consider my Patriotic? Yes! Nationalistic? No!

    Agreed. Thinking about this more, I like your point and the distinction you make. - Jim W.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Yes, the CIA has blown up some stuff, or caused drugs to be spread into the So. California area and we have supported some bad regimes, though most of the time they became bad after we helped and trusted them ... shame on us for doing these things and where it has been seriously wrong

    That sentance covers *so much* foreign policy ...

    It seem the USA has a history of backing the wrong side for the wrong reasons such as with Cambodia / Vietnam, Iran / Iraq, Israel / Palestine et ...

    "My enemies enemy is my friend" is a very mistaked belief IMHO.

    Saddam did not become like he is today after he was supported by the USA. He was already a harsh murderer before then but it suited the moment. All they cared about was 'not Iran'.

    Other than that, I think it's good to be patriotic and America does do a lot of good things. I think it would be a better place if they were more honest about the cause of some of the current crisis's going on though.

  • Prisca
    Prisca

    Other nations are equally as good as the USA.

    I'm glad you acknowledge that fact. Actually, I think Australia beats America in many areas (health care, environment, security to name a few) and I would much rather be living in Australia right now than anywhere else (hmm, ok maybe no one wants to bomb New Zealand, but no one wants to live there either )

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