A Case for Healthy Patriotism (page 2)

Mackin

maybe no one wants to bomb New Zealand, but no one wants to live there either

Hey, what you saying girl? This is the best country in the world. There is nowhere else better than New Zealand.

AND, we get rain.

Mackin.

Buster

I think I'm a patriot. But then again, I'm too old to be conscripted in to service. So it may sound a bit hollow.

I'll bet this rankles a feather or two, but I vote right down the NRA line. Yup, for whomever they tell me to vote, I vote.

I disagreed with the JW stance on worldy participation very early on. My logic went as follows: if you had an issue to deal with that affected you family, you would appreciate some help from your neighbor. Your country is an extension of your neighborhood. There is evil in the world, and there are things worth fighting for.

(And no, there are no other countries as good as the USA)

Prisca

back at Mackin

Englishman

Amazing,

Interesting post. I wonder though, do some ex's become patriotic in an attempt to somehow make good the void that can be left in a persons life once they leave an organisation that is so all-consuming?

Englishman.

Pathofthorns

As a Canadian, I rarely hear the term "patriotism" except in an American context. Most here tend to love where they live (although we complain about the weather (and the Leafs) and criticize our politicians alot ).

I think our perspective is more global and we think more in terms of our place in a world community opperating in harmony with the United Nations. Since our military is a joke we have no delusions of trying to "save the world" by interfering militarily outside of the UN in the business of other countries.

Beer and hockey is pretty much patriotism here, and while that sounds pretty simplistic and maybe a bit funny, it probably is not too far off from the way it is. War has not really been on our minds here, but we have generally shook our heads as we watched the US piss away world sympathy for 9/11 by too much talk of unilateral action for an Iraq invasion instead of working with the UN like it finally did due to political pressures. And seeing all of these patriotic Americans hand over their civil liberties in the interests of a "war on terrorism" seems like a step backwards and pretty "unpatriotic" to me.

Patriotism imo is a valuable tool of government in times of war or crisis to limit your criticism of them and your objectivity of their actions. The worse thing that can happen for them is too much of the population saying "hey, this is not right" and then protesting and hindering what their government wants to do.

And how else could young men be preached into battle and for mothers to see their sons die? Never mind thinking about it or asking questions, you love your country right?

I understand love of country, but I don't think I will ever understand American patriotism. It just seems too blind and irrational.

Path

Englishman

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States".

J. Bartlett Brebner

Englishman.

Amazing

Hi E-Man: I suppose some ex-JWs turn to patriotism or as Jjrizo defined a distinct term "Nationalism" to fill a void, if that is what they do ... in my case as with many others, Patriotism is not all-consuming, controlling every waking moment ... it is expressed in certain times as needed ... like Sept. 11 or other times when the nation needs to stand together as a collective community. Other than that, day to day life is all most Americans think about, including me. Barbies, Beer, and Baseball.

Path: I think Jjrizo made a great distinction between "Nationalism" and "Patriotism" ... and it seems that most who characterize issues they do not like about being heavily partisan for the country fall into the 'nationalistic' category ... whereas genuine "Patriotism" means being critical if necessary ... it means asking tough questions, and if necessary, as I pointed out in my initial post, it may mean working for a resistence movement in the event my country goes too far in its ambitions ... Patriotism to me means loving your homeland enough to work for its best interests ... that would not include "nationalism" where one blindly follows bad leaders into bad acts. - Jim Whitney

Edited by - Amazing on 11 November 2002 9:48:49

proplog2

Amazing:

Good job at calming things down. I would hope readers will be attracted to your thread because it is conducive to a rational consideration of patriotism.

This is a case where you need to invoke evolution. It seems that ALL emotion is natural. If you "feel" something it probably has survival value. However, at some point you have to rein in the "wild" feelings and make them serve civilized purposes. Sex is obviously natural. But for the sake of having a civil world it is given a preferred context in marriage.

The feeling that becomes "patriotism" is the same as the feeling of "community". Religion also builds on the sense of "community". This is the feeling that used to hold small groups of humans (a little over 100) as they migrated and followed the herds. It's the same feeling that pulls people together when there is a local disaster - flood, tornado or even a blizzard. This feeling is exploited by national politicians. It is used to arouse a sense of external threat. That's what patriotism is. Plain and simple it is just another dreadful -ism that should be viewed with the utmost skepticism. It is usually expressed as a form of chest pounding to demonstrate that some people are better than others. It is meant to create a sense of community where peoples better judgement would be rooted in caution.

If Sadaam were to make a direct attack on the US there would be no problem mobilizing a response. Sadaam knows that. However we have to know that it is normal and expected that an attack on Sadaam will force him to use whatever he's got. He is more of a threat if he is attacked. Bush is primarily interested in demonstrating to the world that American Policy is going to be unilateral from now on. America is stepping into the empire box and it wants the world to know that it will be calling the shots. This is the Chenney doctrine that was formulated in 1992.

Don't be fooled by the apparent unanmity of the security council vote. Syria has expressed reservations. Most of the members that voted for the resolution felt that it was a way of circumventing war. Bush made sure that the language still contained a trigger ie. that any country that feels Iraq is a direct threat may pursue war if it chooses.

The USA most certainly is going to war. However, Russia may have a surprise for us disguised as "terrorism".

Amazing

Hi Proplog2:

The negative featrues you describe I think are better characterized as "natinalism" as Jjrizo put it. Patriotism is a love of homeland, much the same as love of family, but on a larger scale. That love does not mean doing bad things blindly as one might do in a 'natinalistic' sense ... but working for the best interests of the community at large.

Most ALL Politicians in all countries exploit issues everyday in everyway ... it is why they are politicians ... and they do this in all nations ... none are exempt ... that is why I distrust government far more than I distrust big business or even big religion ... big government has fewer checks and balances and with such extreme power can do some wicked things ... patriotism or being patriotic does not mean blindly serving such interests ... but rather serving our fellow human so that government is kept in check at all times ... this is one reason why I like the American system of "limited" government ... the Constitution was never intended to limit the People, but rather it limits Government. That is one reason why our system has worked as well as it has. - Jim W.

Focus

Just drifted in here during a spare minute, and note it is claimed that two of the world's greatest dictionary-makers, unlike the various Net Nabobs of JWD, both got it wrong. R-I-G-H-T .

Consider:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."
- Dr Samuel Johnson (1709-1784), spoken on April 18, 1775, and quoted in James Boswell's 'Life of Samuel Johnson', Volume 2, page 365. Johnson wrote the first comprehensive dictionary of the English language. Johnson was probably a bit of a patriot...

"Patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit it is the first."
- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914/5), 'The Devil's Dictionary' (1911). This work is considered by many to be the greatest dictionary ever written.

Here are some lesser lights:

"'My country right or wrong' is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober'."
- G.K. Chesterton, 'The Defendant' (1901)

"You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race."
- George Bernard Shaw, 'O'Flaherty, V.C.' (1915)

"Leave both patriotism and nationalism - between which there is a distinction without a difference, one being the other's fruit - for the great dustbin of history. Humanitarianism is all that matters, as what we all have in common is far more important than that which is used to divide us."
- Focus, 'The Collected Works of The Fookus' (1997)

"Patriot, n. A Part of a Riot"
- Focus, 'Roll Over, Ambrose Bierce' (1999)

The common people of Iraq have already suffered long enough and badly enough. I ask you, does it take a full-scale war just to overturn Saddam's seed and screed? All that is needed to do this is a few people of intelligence, integrity and courage, but all I see are the stooges of the Colin Class, the George Class and the Condo Class. We live in interesting times, indeed.

--
Focus
(Noah Amazed and his Maid Surprised Class)

ps- The key word in the Last Post of Amazing is "intended". It deserved an underline or two. There is nothing so funny as a genuine naif.

A Case for Healthy Patriotism

Share this