Thinking about Bill Bowen...

by Pathofthorns 112 Replies latest jw friends

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  Gary1914

  Excuse me for not introducing myself properly. I have been lurking here for a while and I have finally had all I can stand and I must respond.

  fj, you mentioned on this thread or another one (I can't remember which) that the reputations of Jim, Carl and others had been diminished because of the "antics" of Bill Bowen. I would like to address that. For me, their reputations were diminished because they came on to this forum waving their Bibles, quoting scriptures, shoving their credentials in our faces all in the name of trashing Bill Bowen. They came one at a time proclaiming their christianity, not to bring about an end to this matter as one would have thought, but to throw more fuel on it. After they left, suddenly you appeared. You have been frothing at the mouth ever since you've been here, jumping into every thread and on every person who dares says something positive about Bill Bowen. Disgusting.

  Bill said that Ray Franz supports the two witness rule. Well, lo and behold, he does support the two witness rule. However, we are not to blame him for that. As he says it's Paul's fault and even Jesus' fault. Ray Franz wrote the chapter and when he wrote it he made no concessions for any specific offense. He did not say that this does not apply in the case of children or does not apply in the case of wife beating. The rule was left to stand on its on and so was applied that way. It is only now that he says that it was not meant to apply in all cases.

  For those who cannot believe that Ray Franz never heard of child molestation while on the governing body, just for the record, on page 73 in the organization book, it says that a child, a minor, is required to face those he accuses. I wonder what a child could possibly be accusing an adult of? Would the adult have hit him, or would the adult have stolen his toys? I wonder.

  I heard that you were down on your luck. Are Ray, Jim and Carl paying you to take up their cause? If so, I think you have more than earned your money.

  fj, I think we all know your agenda now. Bill is scum and Ray Franz is a wonderful man. You can go sit back down now
• 

  Brummie

  This all might sound unreasonable to you

  Yes, it most certainly does.

  fjtoth

  fjtoth if I could just lend your soapbox for a minute and state that nothing that I said is inconsistent with how I personally feel on the matter! I dont find in necessary to walk around with a tissue ready to wipe the current smear from Ray Franzes butt! Neither do I feel the need to walk round wiping the spittle from BB's mouth. This may sound complicated to those who do. I have more comlex and interesting things in life to spend time with. I give credit to those who have been able to give a reasonable response, whichever party they have defended.

  I could go and paste what seems like your inconsistencies but I reckon doing that would give me the oppertunity to just miss all the valuble points you have made or ignore them, like you have done on my post so far. Also what may seem like inconsistences are probably not, its just that for the sake of being breif we miss out clarifying everything.

  For the sake of clarity:

  Whether BBs accusations are false or un-provable is another matter and another endless thread...that still doesnt tarnish Rays reputation FOR ME (you missed that "for me" detail out when highlighting MY inconsistences), it may do for others it doesnt FOR ME. I am not a follower of either man but would join either in a just cause, so I chose not to sit on the jury here since neither one is facing the death penalty or a long drawn out sentence in a cold cell just becasue they dissappointed ME or YOU in some way. Therefore my being disappointed in either guy doesnt warrant the conclusion that I now totally disgard either. I still appreciate all the guys regardless of being disappointed by them in certain things.

  The jury already reached their conclusions a long time ago so so its mere hype to pretend our opinions are still needed to reach yet another fair conclusion.

  In the world I live in, disagreeing or being disappointed is a natural procedure sometimes, it still doesnt mean we cut off and slam the person for everything they utter. I disagreed with RF on certain issues long before BB even thought about leaving the WT, if that alarms anyone then thats ok. What does it matter to me? RF is only a man, to prove it, he was deceived and made some harsh judgements over a 60 year period, but he still did it all as a gentleman and I have no doubt his heart was in the right place even then as a decieved man...Yep he's a man..why would I veiw him as anything else? I have not changed my opinion of him, he is still only a man even now! But to his credit he has done his utmost to correct things and has helped many in the process. Thats very honorable, but I still have disagreements. Same goes for BB, for you and for me and anyone else.

  This all might sound unreasonable to you

  Yes, it most certainly does.

  fjtoth

  If all this sounds unreasonable too then I wouldnt take it too personally, I find the blown up exaggerated, continuation of glorifying either fallen man is far more unreasonable than any weak link in my chain of words....

  Your not my enemy fjtoth, neither is BB or RF and I'm not an enemy of either.

  Brummie
• 

  fjtoth

  Edited by - fjtoth on 21 November 2002 18:27:38
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  fjtoth

  Edited by - fjtoth on 21 November 2002 18:30:37
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  Brummie

  So, what's the big deal?

  Talk about missing the point and losing the plot!

  Well see the BIG deal is.....oh why bother, we would only lose you again in your inability to see the reasoning of anyone other than Ray Franz and those who hold his zongga. Go wipe your hands and change the scratched record. You obviousely missed the train here, and on all the threads.

  Go and read all the reasonable threads for and againsts RF and BB and you will see the big deal was far removed from BBs original vicous atrocious aggressive monsterous horrendous attack on poor RF (who coincidently knew nothing about the 2 witness rule as it applied to kids despite garys quote from the Organisation book).

  If Ray didnt write it, but only quoted from a previous book, are we all assuming he didnt read and agree with the organisation book when it spoke of kids facing the accused? Second thoughts, dont answer that, I'll reason it through for myself.

  Whats the big deal

  ...oh geesh, lets not even go there again.

  fjtoth, I disagree with you but I do not think your a bad person. I just disagree.

  Brummie
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  Quandary

  Can someone elaborate about the allegation against a member of the GB molesting a young girl? While reading the posts on this topic Nancee Park mentioned it. I realize it is only an ALLEGATION, but I would be interested to find out any details. If I recall correctly, this brings the total members of the GB being implicated in molestation issues to three. Of course an allegation is NOT fact uless proven in a court of law, nonetheless, the fact that three members of the GB have had their names connected to this issue is disturbing to say the least.

  Q
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  Brummie

  You specifically stated that RF no longer meets your expectations. You wrote that your expectations concerning him were "unrealistic." How can you sit there and suggest that BB had nothing to do with this new view you have of RF? Really, how?

  Hey I did disagree on minor issues before BB stepped on the scene, I disagree a bit more after he has stepped on the scene, so WHAT? Thats doesnt make me his enemy, I still agree with RF on many things and commend him and pass his books on to many, I totally disagree with those who think the sun shines out of his joint, (In saying that I am aware that not everyone who is defending him thinks the sun shine there. But if the cap fits you then you wear it, otherwise dont exhaust yourself trying to squeeze into a cap that is to small or big for your apparently balanced head )

  Likewise..I did disagree on minor issues with BB before the recent RF responses came to a head, I disagree with BB a bit more after RF has recently stepped on the scene, so WHAT? Thats doesnt make me his enemy

  I cant state any clearer how I am against neither. But if you feel a lot better after perverting anything I have said then hey, make the most of your joy, Im glad for you to have found a purpose in life.

  You don't impress me with .

  Like here I am doing my best to impress YOU and actually thats a lie, I really couldnt give 2 hoots whether I impress you or not, take yourself down of the soap box, your obviously mistaking it for a pedestal.

  You don't impress me with your filthy illustrations nor with your piously self-ingratiating backtracking.

  Well hey, sit back and chill and I'll entertain you by living up to the reputation

  Brummie

  ---

  Its not far back to sanity...I'll be there for you there when you arrive.
• 

  waiting

  Just goes 'round an 'round.

  I've learned a lot about the Christian men who feel that there's no sense in speaking of a movement trying to protect children from being raped/molested by JW's.....because JW's problem is no worse than other religions. In other words "they aren't any worse than anyone else....so let's just not talk about it."

  Btw, that's been the viewpoint of society in general from the dawning of civilization. Civilized people don't like to think about a grown up raping a kid. They know it happens....they just don't want to acknowledge.

  Thus the very need for people like Bill Bowen & groups like SilentLambs. They take us from our comfort zone and shake us up. They are absolutely necessary, whether totally polite or not.

  Franz has chosen not to mention the issue of child abuse - that is his right. I respect what he has done.....and am personally dismayed by what he's chosen to remain silent upon - the raping of children & cover up by Jehovah's Witnesses. It is his right.

  I hope Bowen continues his growth as an xjw (like the rest of us), his growth as a spokeman for abused persons, and as a major thorn in the side of the WTBTS. It also is his right.

  The WT is our enemy - not Franz, nor Bowen. The Cult of the WatchTower Bible & Tract Society.

  Btw, Gary,

  Welcome to our forum - and great quote from the Organization book about children having to face those they accuse. A new point for me. Thanks.
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  Gary1914

  bitterness that just oozes out of your every sentence

  .

  That's rich. The venom does not ooze when you speak negatively about Bill Bowen, it just oozes when I speak negatively about Ray Franz? It is no wonder than you become lost in words so easily.
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  Gary1914

  Thank you Waiting and you're welcome.