by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Herk, Thank you for your thoughtful refutation. I did enjoy reading it, as it arose many worthy and interesting points regarding the trinity. I have no more time tonight to respond, but if you are still around later, I will be posting a response tomorrow. Hope to hear from you again.
CORDIALLY,
meadow
Meadow77, if your intention was to start a more or less meaningfull discussion, your use of words only served to make it impossible. A few over-simplified lines like that with hateful words in-between only showed you in fact have no idea as to what you are talking about. Take a look for example at www.amazon.com and make the search for Trinity and see how many books (and mighty thick ones, too) you end up with, pro and con, and how many mainstream scholars and theologians who point out the fallacies of the Trinity doctrine. For example, Buzzard/Hunting: "The Doctrine of the Trinity. Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound" would be one to show how mainstream scholars studying the topic have left the Trinity doctrine for good.
Messages like your only alienate us, and what the world needs now, to quote them good, old songwriters, is love, sweet love, and not hateful words by self-righteous teachers.
G'day Meadow,
I'm sure you appreciate that you are the second "Newbie" who's posted a thread about the Trinity in the past two days.
I am not a jw, but have many relatives and friends who are. I am now a born again christian and have dreamed of a way to show my family the real "truth" without confrontation. I am writing to you first bcuz of your comment about exchanging relatives addresses to send them this info on the U.N. If anything I would at least love for someone to mail me the proof they have about the WT involvement with the U.N. I would love to tell everyone my whole story involving the JW'S. It's been a long and winding road, but as a christian now, I try to put away my feelings of disbelief and anger. I am trying now to reach my family. If anyone has suggestions, I am open.
This is how you introduced yourself, and you asked for suggestions. Now, if you were a Dub, or a former dub, you would know that the last thing that a JW wants to discuss is the Trinity.
There seems to be a notion, mistakenly IMO, by some Christians that in order to reach Dubs and convert them, they need to teach them the Trinity. In my view, nothing could be further from the truth. What would be helpful for a dub is to see clearly the role of the Organisation and how it's not a Bible-based teaching.
But only a person with a dub background can really appreciate that.
Oh, I'm sorry that I forgot to first welcome you aboard. we would indeed like to hear that story of the "long and winding road".
Cheers, Ozzie
Edited by - ozziepost on 26 November 2002 1:40:38
Meadows, this is one of most useless discussions a person can have. I don't believe in the trinity and never have and can supply endless scriptures and scholastic accounts to support me.
You, obviously, do believe in it and can also supply endless scriptures and scholastic support of your theory.
All can be refuted due to vague meaning and translators bias, in all translations, and it ends up being another useless religious argument, with no one winning and no one showing the love Jesus mentioned at John 13:34, 35.
I accept and respect a trinitarians view, but oddly, they never do mine. So, may I recommend you read the book, "The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound," by Anthny Buzzard and Charles Hunting.
have fun
Lew W
How can the WBTS acknowledge that Satan--the Father of lies--had the power to manifest himself in the flesh (as the Serpent), but God didn't take the fleshly form of Jesus Christ? Did Satan demonstrate more biblical power than Jehovah?
If we hold God to be more almighty than Satan, then Satan can't one-up our Lord. So if the devil can reveal himself in a trinitarian nature: as Satan, serpent(devil incarnate), and evil spirit (that entered Judas at the last supper; rebuked by Christ in Lk), God must likewise AT LEAST exist in an equivalent nature: Almighty Father, Jesus Christ (God incarnate), and the Holy Spirit (paraclete). To expect or acknowledge anything less of our lord than demonstrated by Satan would make God to be less than Satan.
Satan--the Father of lies--had the power to manifest himself in the flesh (as the Serpent)
No, Firm, they don't. The WTS publications teach that Satan spoke through a serpent, much like a ventriloquist and his dummy. So, you see, there is a difference.
Cheers, Ozzie
Irongland no im not a mormon Im just saying that a christian in the 2nd century didnt have a bible as we know it he or she would have some of the bible. Does that mean things were unclear in the first centuries before the scriptures were decided apon? Well no as I said before christian doctrine was handed down from 70 ad when the christian church was thrust apon the world. What about the creeds which were a summary of christian beleif even before the scriptures were decided apon. ei the nicean creed and the apostals creed. I beleive the creed of Athanasius came after the bible. However I dont feel anyone can argue baptisimal statements which later developed into the creeds are not christian beleif.
Meadow77 there is plenty of information about the early christian church and the developement of christian beleif one good book is Christian Thought by Tony Lane a Presbyterian I have other books I cant get my hands on at the moment but some books i got about the early church from a catholic book shop has information about the developement of christian thought.
Barry
OldHippie,
Thanks for the reminder about Amazon. I was amazed at the list when I searched for books on "Trinity." On the other hand, I was a bit disappointed at first not to find the book you mentioned called "The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound." It was buried several pages down the list. Happily I did find it right away when I searched for "Buzzard," the name you gave as one of the authors.
Herk
The WTS publications teach that Satan spoke through a serpent, much like a ventriloquist and his dummy.
ozziepost: thanks for the clarification. Now that I think about it, I do remember my JW friend mention something similar. She said that JW's don't believe that the Serpent was Satan. So then I jokingly asked, "So did Satan send his only-begotten serpent to earth? Is that it?".
Revelation 12:9 identifies Satan as that serpent: "And that great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, who leads astray the whole world;..." There it is, 2 (if not all 3) parts of the trinity as revealed by Satan.
Any thoughts? Thanks and peace be with all of you.
Another great book is "When Jesus became God." Historically, the Trinity has very tarnished roots, like most of the rubbish that came out of Constantine's version of Christianity.
Edited by - thichi on 26 November 2002 15:17:5
