The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

SwedishChef,
Hold on! You gave us some texts that you said prove that Jesus is Almighty God. I showed you to be wrong. What is your explanation?
Now you're presenting even more texts that you've misread. How about clearing up what you started before moving on?
What is your response to what I wrote about 1 Timothy 3:16?
How about 1 John 5:7? Revelation 1:8? Genesis 1:26? Matthew 28:19? The use of elohim?
You've got unfinished business here. Don't try to run away from it. If the Trinity is true, it should be quite easy for you to show that I'm in error. I'm interested in seeing how you finish what you started.
You wrote:
I just love how every JW is a Hebrew and Greek expert!
I'm not a JW, but I know many who are. Among those who live and work outside of their headquarters establishments, I never met a single one during several decades who claimed to be either a Hebrew or Greek expert. I'm quite certain you can't name even one yourself. If you can, it certainly doesn't prove by a long stretch that every last one of them claims to be "a Hebrew and Greek expert."
There's plenty wrong with JWs and their religion, so I don't see why you feel a need to make up false stories about them.
Herk
herk

Paduan,
You're a typical trinitarian. When you're stuck and don't know how to find your way out of a dilemma, you change the subject.
Before moving on to 1 Corinthians 12:3, how do you respond to what I explained about Matthew 16:17?
Did Peter say "You are God"? Or did he say "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God"?
Remember, you brought this up. You claimed that God revealed to Peter the truth about Jesus. What is that truth that God revealed? Before you go mocking the claim that Peter was a nontrinitarian, what does the evidence show? Can you be honest with your answer?
Herk
DakotaRed

Once again, trinitarians come with their disrespect of others beliefs, claiming how it is easily seen in the Bible, assuming that all here believe in the Bible. They post their endless litany of vague and questionable scriptures probably copied and pasted from some web site, but they always fail to view the entire Bible. Just like the dubs, they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Since they have decided what is and is not in the Bible for everyone else, may I draw their attention to the following points?
If Jesus is in fact God.....

1. Why is he called the "firstborn over all Creation"? (Col.1:15; Rev. 3:14; John 1:14)

2. Why did he say he did not come of his "own initiative," but was "sent forth"? (John 8:42)

3. Why did Jesus not know the "day and hour" of the great Tribulation, but God did? (Matt. 24:36)

4. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer? (John 17)

5. Why did Jesus say, "The Father is greater than I am"? (John 14:28)

6. How did "he appear for us in God's presence"? (Heb. 9:24)

7. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his Baptism saying, "This is my Son"? (Matt. 3:17)

8. How could he further be exalted to a superior position? (Phlp. 2:9,10

9. How can he aslo be "the mediator between God and Man"? 1 Tim. 2:5)

10. Why did Paul say, "The head of Christ is God"? (1 cor. 11:3)

11. Why does Jesus "hand the kingdom over to his God" and "subject himself to God"? ( 1 Cor. 15:24,28)

12. Who does he refer to as "My God"? (John 20:17)

13. Who is referred to prophetically at (Prov. 8:22-31)?

14. How does he sit at God's "Right Hand"? ( Ps. 110:1)

15. Why does John say, "No man has seen God at any time? (John 1:18)

16. Why did he ask not to be called "good," saying "nobody is good, except one, God"? ( Luke 18:19)

17. Why does Daniel say, "to him were given rulership"? (Daniel 7:13,14)

18. Why did people not die when they saw Jesus? (Ex. 33:20)

19. How was Jesus dead and God alive at the same time? (Acts 2:24)

20. Why did he need somone to save him? (Heb. 5:7)

21. How is he not equal to or greater than the one who sent him? (John 13:16)

22. Who did God not spare, but gave up for us all? (Rom. 8:32)

23. How is everything, even Christ, under God? (Eph. 1:10)

24. Why does Jesus need Life and Authority "GRANTED" to him? (John 5:27,28; Matt 28:18)

25. Why did he, although in the form of God, not consider himself equal to God? (Phlp 2:6)

26. How could he be WITH God, and BE God? (John.1:1)

27. Why is he not powerful enough to subject things to himself? (1Cor.15:27, 1Pt.3:22, Eph.1:17,22)

28. Why did he have to LEARN anything? (Heb.5:8, Jn.8:28)

29. Why is speaking against him not as bad as speaking against the Holy Spirit? (Mt.12:31,32, Lk.12:10)

30. Why did he have to be EXALTED to Leader and Savior? (Ac.5:31)

31. How could he be EXALTED and GIVEN a higher name than he had? (Philp.2:9-11)

32. Why did he worship the Father? (John 4:22)

33. Why can he not do anything on his own? (John 5:19, John 6:38)

32. How can he be God's servant? (Act.4:26,27,30)

33. How could he receive strength from an angel? (Lk.22:44)

34. How can he be God and the "Image" of God at the same time? (Col.1:15 , Heb.1:3)

35. Why is he called the "Agency" of creation and not the Originator? (1Cor.8:6)

36. Why did Jesus say GOD was "good" in a way that Jesus was not? (Mark 10:18)

37. Why does he have an archangels voice instead of God's voice? (1Thes.4:16)

38. Why is the only "worship" given to him the same given to humans? (Heb. 1:6, cf. Mt. 18:26, Rev. 3:9 - "Proskuneo")

39. Why is he never given the worship that only God receives? (Mt. 4:10 -"Latreuo")

40. How could he get commanded to do anything? (Jn.12:49)

41. Why did Steven see two separate entities, GOD and Jesus, and not just one God or three persons? (Acts 7:55)

42. How could he be seen at GOD's right hand, instead as part of God? (Lk.22:69, Acts 7:55, Rm.8:34)

43. Why would he need to receive a revelation from God? (Rev.1:1)

44. How is he the Only "begotten" Son of God? (Jn. 3:16)

45. How could he have a FATHER? (Jn 20:17)

46. How is it possible that he come in flesh? (1Kings 8:27, Acts 17:24,25)

47. How could he appear before GOD? (Heb.9:24)

48. Why did Trinitarians have to add and subtract from Scripture to prove it? (1Jn.5:7,8, 1Tim.3:16, Jn.1:18) Rev.22:18,19.

49. Why does the bible instruct us to acknowledge him as the Son of God and not God? (1 John 4:15)

50. Why did God not "spare his own Son?" (Ro. 8:32)

51. Why did Jesus ellude to the fact he was not greater than God? (John 13:16)

52. Why did demons and even Satan acknowledge him as the Son and not as God? (Matt. 4:3,6; Luke 8:28)

53. Why does Paul refer to God as the God of Jesus? 2 Cor. 1:3)

54. How does God "choose" his Son? (Psalms 2:7,8)

55. Why is Jesus spoken of as "the anointed of God?" (Acts 4:24-27)

56. How does Jesus "Live" "Because" of the Father? (John 6:57)

57. If the trinity is a "mystery" not to be understood, how can it be tested? (1 Thess 5:21)

58. If the trinity is a "hidden secret" revealed only by God, why did God say he never spoke in secret? (Isaiah 45:19)

59. Who made Jesus "a little lower than the angels?" (Heb. 2:9,10)

60. Why does he refer to God as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD?" (John 17:3)

61. How can elohim and echad be plural, yet there not be multiple Gods?

62. If elohim indeed does mean plural of God, why isn't Moses, Dagon, and Ashtoreth considered also to be plural? (Ex. 7:1; 1Sa 5:7; 1Ki 11:5)

63. If Jesus clearly gave the Trinitarian formula for Baptism at Matthew 28:19, why didn't one single Apostle follow it throughout the Book of Acts?

64. How can Adam also be a "Son of God," yet he isn't considered equal to God? (Luke 3:38)

65. Then why isn't it plainly and clearly stated as such anywhere in the bible?
herk

Dakota,
Your questions prove conclusively that trinitarians go by the scriptures. In fact, they go by them so fast and furiously that they completely miss the point every time.
Herk
JosephMalik

The bible says there are three who bear witness in heaven. The Father, the son, and the Holy spirit, and that they are one. What is confusing about that? The JW's are the only one's making a person believe that it's a concept too confusing. The bible is very clear, no stalemate here.
meadow77,
Actually the Bible does not say this. Only some translations render the text in this way but most do not. The NIVUS renders 1 John 5:7,8 like this:
7 For there are {A} three that testify:
8 the {7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate <testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the> (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)} Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
But it makes no difference really as the words Holy Spirit are used to represent the Faith here on earth and the truth they stand for. Naturally we would expect the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit to be one and united regarding such truth. But we do not expect them to be one BEING which is an entirely different matter. The context of the text is about a witness a testimony regarding our Lords sacrifice and not about entities like People or Beings. If we read verse 6 which introduced these verses we would have noticed that truth is under discussion not Persons or Beings.
6 This is the one who came by water and blood Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
So in all reality John is simply discussing the dedication and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus, the central theme of Christianity, to which all involved in the faith agree not the liteal nature of the Supreme Being.
Joseph
Edited by - JosephMalik on 27 November 2002 13:24:39
DakotaRed

Trinitarians, in their misguided quest to cling to Constantines political decision, deny Jesus' very words in order to put more faith in the spurious words of John;
John 17:3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (KJV)
It is also my belief that the JWs have the weakest arguments agaisnt the trinity, very few actually dig for information, but rely on the Watchtower. Once you seek actual research outside the Watchtower from the many other groups that have come to see the trinity for the lie it is, you will find decent and better research.
Trinitarians also rely on misinterpretations and spurious scripture to support their agenda. Sadly, even after they are shown that a portion of scripture has been added, they refer right back to the very spurious scripture they were just shown was added.
Lew W
ThiChi

DakotaRed: Great points. I agree.
Navigator

I agree with very little of what the JWs teach but, on the subject of the Trinity, I believe that they are correct.
Herk
You are being generous when you suggest that a scribe went beyond what was in the text when he translated 1John 5:7. In truth, it was an outright fabrication. When printing was coming into fashion, there was a rush to publish. Early works were in greek. There was a prominent greek scholar by the name of Erasmus who provided some of the early translations to the printers in Switzerland. His first edition did not contain the phrase "the three are one" in 1John5:7. He was roundly critized by Catholic scholars for not including it. Being a somewhat "cocky" individual , he responded that if someone could show him a writing prior to the 6th century A.D. that included the line, he would include it in the 2nd edition. The Catholic Church manufactured such a document in a monestary in Spain that specialized in this sort of thing, ancient inks, baking to simulate age, etc.. Erasmus was being hard pressed by his publishers to meet a deadline and didn't take time to check out the document, but honored his promise to include it. Unfortunately, this was the edition used by the King James translators as the main source document for their work. It was only later that the fraudulent nature of the document was discovered. That is why most modern translations do not include the line, but translate it "and the three agree".
I don't have my source in front of me, having loaned it out, but the information, if memory serves, came from an essay contained in the Interpreters One Volume Commentary entitled "The Bible in English".
So, Swedish Chef, do you see why there are some of us that might have trouble "understanding" the simple statement, "The three are one".
SwedishChef

Herk, it has been my experience that these debates translations and origninal Greek/Hebrew words are pointless. The fact is the KJV has never been proven faulty. It also agrees completely with the Strongs and Youngs literal translations. The fact is the Bible says what it says, if your not willing to accept that its not my problem.
Also, I would love to know how I took any of these verse out of context. You just blew over my last post because you had no answer. You can argue all you want, but it won't change Scripture.
LucidSky

When someone can show me from a Bible that God is three rather than just one, I'll reconsider the Trinity. Until then...

The Trinity

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