Donkey's never-ending atheism thread

by donkey 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

donkey

Some claim that atheism is a belief system or a religion unto itself.
Well, let's examine this objection. First off the claim is a contradiction: atheism is LACK OF belief - not an opposite belief system. So perhasps the claim is made because individuals such as myself tout atheism (or are perceived as adherents or followers). How do I respond to that? If my atheism is such a non-issue , why am I spending so much of my time making statements about it in an evangelical manner?
As one author states on this issue: "It's not something I fight for. When I get all worked up about the virtues of atheism, it's only a way of showing people that I'm glad to enjoy those virtues. In this matter I'm exalting the consequences, not the causes. But of course, I see atheism as the main cause for these highly desirable consequences".
"What consequences?" - you ask. The consequence is appreciation for things around me because of what they are - not because I feel some sense of gratitude to some spirit in the sky. The opening of my eyes to reality, the end of pretense, the cessation of denial. I know that I am not living for the hope of a future reward by someone who can kill me. I know I am not living a life of sacrifice for the hope of a good afterlife. I am living for this life; for my own experiences, my own fun, my own sense of adventure, my own sense of building, my own energy, my own set of emotions and rules, my own worship of me. I know that this all sounds egotistical - well it is; but not in the traditional sense of the word. I don't think I am better than anyone else; I do know I am better than I was yesterday or even 5 minutes ago.
I am free. As Patrick Henry said "Give me freedom or give me death". Freedom is here now for me. Every thing I do I do by choice and I am free to make such choice. Will life throw curveballs at me? Of course - but my reaction to those curveballs is my freedom. I am living under the consequence that I am accountable to myself and if I make a mess of my life now I have myself to blame. I can enjoy it to the best of my emotional and physical ability or I can give up and look to blame others, look to blame undseen Gods, live for some fabled future reward, or I can be the best person I can be at any moment in time.
SwedishChef

The teleological argument is also known as the argument from design. Quite simply, it states that a designer must exist since the universe and living things exhibit marks of design in their order, consistency, unity, and pattern.
A typical analogy of this is the Watchmaker which was given by William Paley (1743-1805). The argument goes as follows. If you found a watch in an empty field, you would logically conclude that it was designed and not the product of random formation. Likewise, when we look at life and the universe, it is natural to conclude there is a designer see we see how perfectly the universe and life forms operate. The eye is typically used as an example of design. It is a marvelous development. In order for it to work there must be many different convergent parts that individually have no function but have value only in a designed whole. It is only in the combined total do they exhibit their total function. This function is by design.
Paley's argument is as follows:
Human artifacts are products of intelligent design.
The universe resembles human artifacts.
Therefore the universe is a product of intelligent design.
But the universe is complex and gigantic, in comparison to human artifacts.
Therefore, there probably is a powerful and vastly intelligent designer who created the universe.
Strengths of the argument
This argument is simple to understand and has merit since humans are designers by nature and it is natural to think in terms of things having purpose. It is also consistent with Rom. 1:20,
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
I think the teleological argument carries weight because it is consistent with Scripture. The Bible states that we are made in God's image. Therefore, there are certain things that we will resonate to. Even though the unbeliever suppresses the truth of God in his unrighteousness (Rom. 1:18-32), the truth is still there.
Additionally, evolutionists have difficulty accounting for apparent design in objects like the eye, the heart, and the brain where many different parts come together to form the whole. These individual parts have no purpose except in the function of the whole. How can evolution account for these detailed congruent occurrences? So far, it can't.
expatbrit

Why the Watchmaker analogy is bunk (from Infidels.org):
The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately.
But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favor of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist position.
This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe, what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just "is" (or "was").
From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.
The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the universe too must have a creator.
The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.
Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a different part of creation (or a different universe, if you allow the possibility that there might be more than one).
Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent.
Apart from logical inconsistencies in the watchmaker argument, it's worth pointing out that biological systems and mechanical systems behave very differently. What's unlikely for a pile of gears is not necessarily unlikely for a mixture of biological molecules.
Why irreducible complexity is bunk:
http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/evolve_irreducible.html
Expatbrit
donkey

Men of generous culture or of great learning, and women of eminent piety and virtue, from the humble cottage to the throne, have been led out for matters of conscience and butchered before a mad rabble lusting after God. The limbs of men and women have been torn from their bodies, their eyes gouged out, their flesh mangled and slowly roasted, their children barbarously tortured before their eyes, because of religious opinion. -- Joel Moody
donkey

To imagine that God wants prayers and hymns of praise is to make him out to a sort of oriental potentate; while praying for favours is an attempt to get him to change his allegedly all-wise mind. -- Barbara Smoker
Focus

SwedishChef wrote:
the Watchmaker
Here!
And - why did you fail to address the hundreds of extracts of Bible nonsense I left for you in this thread, in response to your absurd claim that the Bible is scientific and displays special knowledge thereof? (I have another 4 times as many references again, which of course may explain your reticence).
universe exhibits
The macro-structure of the Universe is as predicted by the laws of Physics, principally but not exclusively Newton's Laws of Motion, the Theory of Gravitation, the Theory of General Relativity . The period immediately after the Big Bang benefit from other tools of Physics, including Quantum Mechanics.
No designer is needed.
the eye
Give a billion billion billion billion macro-molecules and a few billion years of "stirring", and the Theory of Evolution will, through the laws of Probability and Natural Selection, produce many, many eyes. And monkeys too.
No designer is needed.
Note: This does not prove there is no ultimate designer. But "he" sure has hidden his works well, if "he" is.
Why would a creationist God try so hard to forge a perfect fossil record? So that only the stupid would follow him? Why would God wish to punish "God-given" intelligence?
--
Focus
(Rational Agnostic Class)
SwedishChef

1. The following are brief comments which support the creationist view
of life and confirm the Biblical statements on science. Science supports
creation rather than the theory of evolution.
2. Gen 1 and 2 tell the correct sequence of created matter and life.
3. Atmosphere
a) Carbon 14. Scientists say that the production of Carbon 14 should
reach equilibrium with Carbon 12 when the atmosphere is 40,000 years
old. Modern calculations show that Carbon 14 is being produced at 3 1
greater rate than it is decaying. This indicates the atmosphere is less
than 10,000 years old. Carbon dating is based on the speed of light
which has been found not to be constant but gradually reducing in speed.
b) Helium. Produced by the action of cosmic rays on the atmosphere the
amount of helium present in the atmosphere indicates an approximate age
of 10,000 years. No atmosphere 10,000 years ago - no life thus fossils
and men are contemporaries.
4. Oceans
Cosmic dust enters the atmosphere at 14.3 million tons per annum. If the
earth was 4.5 billion years old the earth should have a dust blanket in
excess of 100 feet in depth. This doesn't allow for the greater rate of
dust deposit which most scientists believe occurred in ancient times.
The dust is not evident. This dust has been subject to rain translating
the dust from the land via the new system to the oceans.
a) Nickel. Assuming that the oceans were initially of absolutely pure
water we would expect a certain amount of nickel deposits in the ocean
as though somewhat rare on earth nickel is common in cosmic dust. There
should be 950 pounds of nickel per square foot of ocean floor if the
earth is 4.5 billion years old. The amount of nickel present in the
ocean indicates an age of 9,000 years for the ocean.
b) Uranium and Silicon. Similar readings with uranium and silicon give
ocean ages of approximately 10,000 years only.
5. The Earth's Crust
a) Magnetic Field
The magnetic field of the earth has a half life of 1,400 years. This
means that 1,400 years ago the magnetic field was twice as strong,
2,800 years ago four times as strong , etc.
By continuing this process back into history by 8000 BC it has been
calculated that the magnetic field would be the same as a magnetic star
precluding life on the planet. A magnetic star maintains its field by
thermo-nuclear reaction.
Projecting forward by 3100 AD the magnetic field decaying at its present
rate will collapse causing the Van Allan belt to disintegrate allowing
massive radiation of the earth which will end life on this planet. The magnetic field is less than 10,000 years old.
b) Earth's Molten Core
The famous scientist Lord Kelvin calculated the heat loss from the
molten core of the earth through the earth's crust and showed that the
earth was far younger than its estimated 4500 million years. He also
estimated the age of the sun as being young.
6. Biology
a) Mules. Mules are formed by crossing horses and donkeys. Whilst male
mules are always infertile, occasionally a female mule can produce
offspring. By crossing a male horse with the mule a horse will always
result. Similarly a male donkey will produce a donkey. Nature will
revert back to its own kind.
b) Cereals. Hybrid grains can be grown but are generally infertile.
With the recrossing of wheat or oats with the hybrid wheat or oats are
formed, never the hybrid.
7. Geology
a) The Geological Column according to evolutionary theory ranges from
Pleistocene in the Age of Mammals to Pre Cambrian of 570 million years
or more. There are 15 subdivisions in this column. Nowhere in the world
does the geological column exist in its correct order in nature.
b) In the column Trilobites are in the Cambrian period of 500 to 570
million years. In recent years a fossil of a trilobite has been found
with a human sandal print superimposed over it showing trilobites and
man coexisted on the earth at the same time.
c) In the Paluxy River, Texas, along the river bed are lines of dinosaur
foot prints, foot prints of man and children together with giant foot
prints 18" long. (Gen 6:1-6). Giants in the land.
d) In the Appaluchian Mountains from Maine to Georgia are human foot
prints in granite.
e) Supposed "missing links" in humanity.
i) Neanderthal Man is now considered to be modern man. The famous French
general Lafayette had a perfect Neanderthal skull.
ii) Cro-Magnon Man had a brain capacity of 1450 cc towards the upper
limit of human craniums nowadays which range from 900 cc to 1500 cc.
Cro-Magnon had a skull exactly like Charles Darwin.
iii) Piltdown Man, found in East Sussex was found to be an elaborate
hoax which fooled the scientific community for over 40 years.
iv) Nebraska Man was created from a tooth. The tooth was eventually
identified as a pig's tooth.
v) Java Man was constructed from a cranium and jaw found many metres
apart in a gravel bed in Java.
8. Astronomy
a) Jupiter and Satum both give out 21/2 times the heat received from the
sun showing they are young bodies.
b) lo, one of the moons of Jupiter, not only has an atmosphere but has
active volcanoes.
c) Titan, the largest moon of Saturn also has an atmosphere. This
indicated that the moon is less than 10,000 years old.
d) The rings of Saturn are undulating not smooth. By the gravitational
pull of Saturn it is estimated that the rings would have smoothed out
completely between 10,000 and 100,000 years.
e) Astronomers agree that comets have a life of no more than 10,000
years. Assuming that comets are not being created this shows a solar
system of less than 10,000 years.
f) When the first space ships landed on the moon NASA expected that
there would be a 28 mile thick layer of dust of the consistency of icing
sugar. NASA spent $1,000 million experimenting for a successful soft
landing. When Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon he found the dust on
the surface averaged 3" in thickness indicating some 8,000 years in age.
g) Space probes were sent to Mars and Venus to try to find life. Both
were unsuccessful.
9. Thermodynamics
a) 1st Law - Energy is neither created nor destroyed. It changes from
one state to another - this supports creation.
b) 2nd Law - When changes take place, the structure always becomes less
organized, never more complex. Creation confirms this. Evolution is
based on the opposite stance of simple systems becoming more organized
or complex.
c) This very brief topic shows clearly how science supports the fact of
creation rather than the theory of evolution with a likely date of
original creation less than 10,000 years ago.
SwedishChef

1. There is never a conflict between what the Bible says in the original
languages and the TRUE OBSERVATIONS of such sciences as cosmology,
geology, astronomy, chemistry, anatomy, anthropology and psychology.
2. However, actual scientific data and information in the Bible is
extremely limited. The Bible is NOT a scientific text book, nor was it
designed to be one.
3. Being a Book of God's doctrines and filled with spiritual phenomena,
it is obvious that the Bible will occasionally allude to or comment on
what we classify as scientific subjects.
4. Wherever the Bible comments on scientific subjects, the Bible is
always accurate in the original languages. God is the origin of all the
laws and all the phenomena which science is based upon.
5. Therefore, science does not confirm the Bible but occasionally the
Bible confirms scientific data or some scientific classification.
6. If scientific speculation does not line up with the Bible then such
speculation is inaccurate. If there is a true conflict between
scientific speculation and what the Bible says, the Bible is right. Just
as when there is a conflict between some historical interpretation and
what the Bible says, the Bible is right. In other words where the Bible
comments on science, science must agree with the Bible, the Bible is not
required to agree with science.
7. The continuation of the universe and the earth, including man,
animal life, plant life, the stable state of the atmosphere with its
various components all depends on the all powerful and unchangeable
characteristics of Jesus Christ. (Col 1:17, Heb 1:3)
8. 'Scientific laws' is a misnomer. Scientific laws as such, do not
exist because science did not develop these laws and science cannot
enforce them. For example in chemistry God promises that when certain
elements are combined, certain results will follow. This is a DIVINE
LAW, not a scientific law.
9. So-called scientific laws are based on the assumption that the
universe, which operates according to a fixed norm, will continue to do
so. Science can observe and classify certain divine laws and then apply
them productively, but only God in His sovereignty can guarantee the
continuation of these laws.
10. The universe, with its function of matter and energy will not always
exist as it does at the present time. (2Pet 3:10-12, Rev 20:11 )
11. Known scientific laws and phenomena, which man has been able to
observe, classify and apply depend entirely on the faithfulness of God.
(Colossians I:17)
12. The reason for preserving the universe is to resolve the perpetual
conflict in human history, and to bring many sons into glory. (Heb 2:10)
13. The Word of God will survive the destruction of the universe for the
Word of God and Bible doctrine will exist forever. (Ps 119:89)
14. Regenerate man in resurrection body will live forever and survive
the changes in the universe, even surviving the destruction of the
present universe.
15. It is Jesus Christ who holds the universe together by the power of
His Word. (Heb 1:3). At the same time He is holding back eternity in
order for the human race to have the opportunity to believe in Jesus
Christ.
16. Many scientific phenomena are elucidated in the Bible.
a) The Movement of Planets (Job 38:31,32) In the 19th century M. Medler
discovered that Aleyone the brightest star in the Pleides is the centre
of gravity of the solar system. The Hebrew word for Pleides is KIMAH
which means hinge, pivot or axle.
b) Static Electricity (Jer 10:13) This states that static electricity
may be formed by the condensation of vapour.
c) The Earth is Spherical (Isa 40:22, Prov 8:27) The words translated
circle in Isaiah and compass in Proverbs should be translated spherical.
d) The Earth rotates on its Axis ( Lk 17:24 )
e) Air has weight (Job 28:25) - "discovered" in 1630 by Galileo.
f) Winds have circuits (evaporation and precipitation). (Ecclesiastes
1:6) "Discovered" in 1630 by Galileo.
g) Radiation and Polarisation of Lights. (Ps 65:8)
h) Messages are sent by Lightning. (Job 38:35) - Who invented
telegraphy? - God did.
i) The Circulation of the Blood. (Ecclesiastes 12:6) - "discovered" by
Englishman Dr. Harvey.
j) Quarantine for Communicable Diseases (Lev 13:45-46) "discovered" in
recent years by medical research.
rem

SwedishChef is a genius! Every one of his carefully numbered points were 100% accurate. I now know that the atheist scientists are lying when they tell us that the earth was created after light and stars, birds and whales came after reptiles and insects, and flowering plants came after animals. Damn the fossil record to hell praise god and his bible!
rem
donkey

Evolution is the most important battle that Christians have to fight today, a battle we must win by any means, fair or foul! -- Hank Hanegraaff

Donkey's never-ending atheism thread

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