by Yizuman 91 Replies latest jw friends
The updated understanding of 'generation' didn't come as a shock to me then. It wasn't the big change that some have made it out to be. It was a refinement of understanding, not a huge spiritual hurdle to get over
It was only the most important reason for the publication of the Awake magazine. It was only "the Creator's promise." No big deal.
Except, it was just big enough to finally make me say the fateful words "I must find out if they are wrong about other things too."
Expatbrit
Jonadab, I didn't leave the org because I felt unhappy and emotionally unhealthy. I was disfellowshipped, two times, both for apostasy. The first time, I sought reinstatement because I thought the only place I COULD be happy and emotionally healthy was IN the org, and because all my family were (and still are) lifelong JWs. The second time, I won't seek reinstatement because I just can't reconcile most WTS doctrine with either the Bible or common sense. And, as you know, it's an "all or nothing" deal with the org, even to the point of dictating what one may and may not think.
It was only AFTER I'd been out for a while, and especially since I joined this forum, that I realized how superficial and illusory was my sense of satisfaction within the org. And my realization comes, not primarily from some theological or philosophical investigation, but from the refreshing breeze of personal relationships with people who allow me to think freely and accept me for what I am, without prejudice or judgement. I get that here; I never got that in the org.
And I haven't sacrificed my spirituality to get here. Your example of Samuel is a classic argument JWs use to assert that "stay with the organization, or lose God' blessing." Samuel didn't retain God's blessing because he remained an Israelite; he retained God's blessing because he was a faithful reverent human who tried to do the right thing and showed no fear of man. And many other Biblical accounts as well make it so clear that simply being an Israelite did not guarantee God's blessing, and simply not being an Israelite was not in and of itself a barrier to God's blessing.
Membership in any religion is no more than having a library card; it all depends on if and how you use it. I wish you well in your endeavors, and hope that you continue to check out more than just the JW aisle in the library of life.
Craig
I have known those who were disowned by family for becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses. That must have been painful too.
Jonadab, I agree, that must have been painful, and as far as I'm concerned, unloving. One should be free to "examine one's own faith," as well as faiths different from the one we may have been raised in, without fear of being "disowned." It sounds like we are in agreement on this point, seeing firsthand the pain caused when faith is "dictated" opposed to freely examined. This is one reason I chose not to be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, though my family was, and is. The idea that I went door to door, asking strangers to "examine their faiths," to study my faith, come to my place of worship, while I refused to examine their faith, refused to study their religion, began to seem very hypocritical to me. And what I asked strangers to do, to "examine their faith," I could not do myself. When I began reading the Bible without the WTS "aids," I found myself with sincere questions. Yet when I would seek sincere answers, I would be directed to yet another WTS publication, or someone would have to get back to me after checking in the "AID" Book. Finally, I was told not to try and decipher Biblical meanings without the aid of WTS publications! Soon Bible studies began to seem like "canned" responses. My personal study was not a "study," but a "I'll read you a question from a book" and you read back the easily found answer in the paragraph. It could never be my answer, it was never my question. It was always from a book other than the Bible. It never varied. If I asked what someone truly felt a scripture meant, they couldn't even say, it was back to the Aid book. In the end, I felt that I wasn't able to "examine my faith" or any other faith. But I did, I just got to the point in which I didn't speak about it because I had already obtained somewhat of a reputation as being rebellious, only because I wanted to examine and truly study, not recite. So, yes, noone should feel disowned because of a change of heart in their religion. No matter isf it's your acquaintance that became a Witness, or a Witness that becomes a Unitarian. In life we grow, and change, and those that are willing to disown family for doing so need to do some examining of their own.
Capital punishment was a part of Israelite law. There was no opportunity to repent and return once punishment was meted out. At least now with disfellowshipping there is a chance of a return
Repent ? I'm speaking mainly of those that disassociated themselves due to belief. Like myself, though I was fortunate enough to not have been baptized, there are many that disassociated themselves because after serious examination, found they no longer believed that the WTS is God's organization. Some have learned of the WTS's affiliation with the UN, some have witnessed too many changes in WTS doctrine, for whatever reason, they have no need to repent. They are guilty of nothing more than following their consciences. You believe it is loving and Christlike for a family to disassociate themselves from their own child or parent, for life, because for no other reason than they believe differently now. The organization can get "new light," but they can't ? That sounds rather haughty, doesn't it? As for the disfellowshipped, many, for no more reason than questioning the WTS regarding an issue, for example discussing the UN affiliation, or for apostasy when they no longer believe the WTS to be God's earthly organization but they remain quiet only to keep from losing their family, these people do not want to return. For this, the WTS instructs members to disown them, just like your acquaintance's family disowned him or her for becoming a Witness. It isn't loving in either case. But in your acquaintance's case, at least her or his family have the option of "forgiving" and "speaking" to her or him during their lives without fear of being reprimanded.
I didn't mean to go on so, and I hope I didn't come across as argumentative, that certainly wasn't my intent.You sound like a very nice person and I welcome you.
peace, christina
Edited by - deddaisy on 11 December 2002 13:55:24
deddaisy said:I didn't mean to go on so, and I hope I didn't come across as argumentative, that certainly wasn't my intent.You sound like a very nice person and I welcome you.
peace, christina
Thanks Christina. No, you didn't come across as argumentative. I didn't expect that my posting here would be met with open arms by some and I didn't expect my thoughts to find mass appeal either. I will admit to being a firm believer and I'm not here looking for answers to doctrinal questions or debating Society policy. I'm not looking for an argument at all.
I guess one of my main reasons for being here is to see why some of you chose to leave the organization. I know that some here have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The ones that I am curious about are the ones that were and chose to leave for whatever reason. I know that there have been congregations where things aren't what they are supposed to be. I have seen some hurt and leave feeling that God would not let these things happen if this was his organization. I guess I am trying to understand so that I can help those who have been hurt or are drifting away.
I care about people. I don't feel that leaving the truth is the answer. I truly believe that this IS the truth, in spite of what I have read here and elsewhere. I am not blind to things that have gone on in the past, nor do I make excuses for the imperfections of others or failed expectations as regards certain dates.
I do have a few questions that I wouldn't mind an answer to from those who were baptized/unbaptized publishers and then left. How many of you felt that you had a close personal relationship with Jehovah before bapism and after? How do you feel about your relationship with Jehovah now? Do you feel that you still have one or has your faith/belief in God been destroyed?
onacruse said:And many other Biblical accounts as well make it so clear that simply being an Israelite did not guarantee God's blessing, and simply not being an Israelite was not in and of itself a barrier to God's blessing.
Membership in any religion is no more than having a library card; it all depends on if and how you use it.
Thanks for your comment Craig, I fully agree. Just because one is a dedicated, baptized member of Jehovah's Witnesses is no guarantee of God's blessing either. Some tend to wear this like a lucky talisman and it isn't one at all. Our relationship with Jehovah is a personal one. We all need to find out what God requires of us and do it. We all need to establish a relationship with him in the process. Being 'a' Jehovah's Witness is no guarantee of survival at Armageddon. Only those who who are truly witnesses of Jehovah and doing his will can hope to have his favor. We are not the judges of who this will include or will not include. This assignment has been given to Jesus.
I look forward to your comments and posting here on occassion.
Jonadab,
Who are you?! I Loved your posting. Well stated.
I often feel that I'll always be a Witness, although a very weak one due to all my personal struggles with the faith. But in general I like their theology, organization, and can't emotionally afford at the moment to lose the good relationship I have with my parents and some pretty cool people in there.
With a divided heart...............
Take care!
Jonadab, welcome to our community. I think you are a sincere, honest person. I have two comments. One relates to your thoughts on the degree of happiness as a Witness as opposed to those who left. You believe, I take it, that Witnesses are happier. I conducted a survey here. I asked about symptoms of depression, low self esteem and anxiety. Of 75 respondants, about 70% said that they had one or more of these symptoms when they were Witnesses. Now that they are out, the per cent experiencing these symptoms has droped to about 30%. My other thought has to do with your question as to why we left. I left after reading Russell and Rutherford's books. What they wrote constituted an almost entirely different religion. After reading that information, I just could not accept the idea that the WT organization was spirit directed.
onacruse - Membership in any religion is no more than having a library card; it all depends on if and how you use it. I wish you well in your endeavors, and hope that you continue to check out more than just the JW aisle in the library of life.
If I may add to this, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."
I guess I am trying to understand so that I can help those who have been hurt or are drifting away.
G'day Jonadab,
I'm sure your motives are sincere, but I must ask, what on earth makes you think that you have something to offer those who have left the borg?
They have been abused by a controlling organisation that has put itself in the position of Christ. He alone is the mediator for all true Christians ("true" as in Watchtower terminology).
Now that they (those who've left) have experienced real freedom, why on earth would they want to go back? Why take second best?
The wickedness of the WTS has been well-documented in TV programs in the USA, UK, and Australia. Still those who lead the WTS refuse to admit their sins. Still they persecute those who ask questions or speak out about abuse. Still they slander those who do speak out. What did the likes of Barbara Anderson and Bill Bowen in the USA experience? We have martyrs here in Oz too. Why on earth would you think they'd want to return? Recall the Kingdom Song with the words about the wicked returning to their evil way?
If you believe the WTS, then I must tell you, you have been blinded too.
Cheers, Ozzie
Edited by - ozziepost on 16 December 2002 0:51:41
I have been on the fringes for about two years. I'm still a JW in the books. I stopped doing field service more than a year ago. A few of the elders know I have issues. I've told them I'm disturbed and troubled and spiritually weak. One or two of them have been 'supportive'. I still get parts in the school. Sometimes I accept to do it, at other times, I decline. Since I've always been solitary, somewhat, I believed I wouldn't miss people. But I do. May be I was happier when an active witness; that'll be true if the pressure of field service were removed. I loved the 'ordinary' people, those innocents who're doing what they simply believe to be true. When I think of the friends I've met in the witness clan, I'm sad I'm going to miss them. I found one or two true friends; friends who, while they saw what was happening to me, stood like a rock. They're exceptional as witnesses come. But I feel a greater joy at being free from the shackles of the Watchtower. I am undecided on how to place the two on some scale, and where the balance tilts. It's a mixed bag. But a man must do what a man must do. To continue to actively support an organization that's been shown to be what the WTS has been shown to be desecrates something in my humanity. That, I can't compare to anything else.
Do you feel that you still have one or has your faith/belief in God been destroyed?
Jonadab, I believe there is most likely a higher force of some kind, I can't honestly say that I feel this force is the God of the Bible. I feel somehow, how we live our lives, whether it be refusing to compromise our values, or spending our time making someone smile, is more important than "who" or what God is. All through recorded history people have needed a hope of life after death. The Egyptians packed a bag for their eternal lives after death, sun gods, fountains of youth, heaven, nirvana, reincarnation, human sacrifice. Some ancient beliefs sound incredibly uneducated generations later and one wonders how anyone could have supported such a belief. Yet most beliefs can never be completely disproved and who is to say that a so-called "civil" belief system won't be considered an uneducated, ancient belief in the future. Whatever God is, be it karma, nature, collective energy, Jehovah, I have trust that "God" will know what to do with me after my body quits. Now to my point. When I quit attending meetings, at 18, it wasn't because I was sure that the Witnesses were wrong. I felt some of the practices and people were self-righteous, but in spite of that I still felt for a long time after I left that the witnesses may be right, that Armageddon would come. I even defended the Witnesses adamantly when anyone would trash them in conversation. So why did I stop attending meetings? Because after studying and attending meetings for years, I grew to dislike God. I definitely believed in him, but my beliefs regarding God would swing back and forth between: 1) the Witnesses must be mistaken about Jehovah, he could read hearts so why would he kill based on religion and not on one's heart? 2) God must be unloving and unyielding to destroy even the people that have given to others while they have not much to begin with, only because they aren't JWs. So I figured then that either 1) God would read hearts not religions at Armageddon, or 2) God was unloving while demanding love himself and, in that case, he could kill me because I didn't want to live forever under his rule.
I no longer agree with any WTS teachings, accept maybe the denial of the trinity, but having all the answers is not of consequence to me so even that really is not of enough importance to me to debate. What is to be, will be. What I do know is that I am much more respectful towards life now than when I attended meetings.
peace, christina
hurt, you don't sound "spiritually weak !"
