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by Yizuman 91 Replies latest jw friends

Jonadab

larc said:
You believe, I take it, that Witnesses are happier.

Not at all. I have met some very happy people who aren't JW's and I have met some very unhappy people who are JW's. The thing that makes these JW's unhappy isn't that of being one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Nor does the fact that some people are very happy have anything to do with the fact that they aren't Jehovah's Witnesses. We are all subject to the same pressures of living under present conditions. This is an undeniable fact. Some of us are under stresses that others aren't and we all have different personalities and backgrounds to deal with. That being said, even researchers have found that those with 'religion' in their lives tend to be more content and settled as they have a belief to hold onto and a hope for the future, whatever that may be.
I have never considered myself to be a happy person, but I must say that being one of Jehovah's Witnesses has given me hope for the future and something to live for. I am sure that if I didn't have the truth I would probably be dead now. I am content with my life at the present, but even if things went downhill for me it wouldn't worry me to the extent that it might otherwise. As long as I have my faith and a hope for the future I can go on as long as need be.
BTW, thanks for the welcome. :)
Yizuman said:
If I may add to this, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."
LOL. You got that right!!!
Ozzie said:
I'm sure your motives are sincere, but I must ask, what on earth makes you think that you have something to offer those who have left the borg?
It isn't me that has something to offer, it's Jehovah.
Now that they (those who've left) have experienced real freedom, why on earth would they want to go back? Why take second best?
None of us has 'real' freedom. Freedom is limited by laws of nature, laws of society(gov't) and laws of God. Only Jehovah has true freedom. If we go against the laws that have been established we are likely to experience the consequences of our actions.
If you believe the WTS, then I must tell you, you have been blinded too.
I'm not blind. I see things quite clearly.
hurt said:
Since I've always been solitary, somewhat, I believed I wouldn't miss people. But I do. May be I was happier when an active witness; that'll be true if the pressure of field service were removed.
I'm somewhat of an isolationist myself, but I do enjoy the association too. Being active in the truth has given me joy. Even field service is a source of joy to me. It is one of the times I actually feel happy. It isn't an easy thing to do though. It isn't easy knocking on peoples doors knowing the response you usually get. The joy comes from knowing you are trying to help your neighbors with information that will benefit them. Also doing what Jehovah asks us to do is a source of joy. Field service is harder for some than for others, there is no denying that. Could we really call ourselves foot-step followers of Jesus if we didn't do what he commanded? (Matt.24:14, 28:19,20)
But I feel a greater joy at being free from the shackles of the Watchtower. I am undecided on how to place the two on some scale, and where the balance tilts. It's a mixed bag. But a man must do what a man must do. To continue to actively support an organization that's been shown to be what the WTS has been shown to be desecrates something in my humanity. That, I can't compare to anything else.
A man can't sit on the fence and be comfortable. You need to get answers to your questions. If after getting your questions answered you truly believe the WTS is wrong then you need to do what a man must do. I hope that the elders are able to give you the answers and support you need.
deddaisy said:
Jonadab, I believe there is most likely a higher force of some kind, I can't honestly say that I feel this force is the God of the Bible. I feel somehow, how we live our lives, whether it be refusing to compromise our values, or spending our time making someone smile, is more important than "who" or what God is.
I no longer agree with any WTS teachings, accept maybe the denial of the trinity, but having all the answers is not of consequence to me so even that really is not of enough importance to me to debate. What is to be, will be. What I do know is that I am much more respectful towards life now than when I attended meetings.
Thank you for your honest reply christina.
Jonadab

deddaisy said:
Because after studying and attending meetings for years, I grew to dislike God. I definitely believed in him, but my beliefs regarding God would swing back and forth between: 1) the Witnesses must be mistaken about Jehovah, he could read hearts so why would he kill based on religion and not on one's heart? 2) God must be unloving and unyielding to destroy even the people that have given to others while they have not much to begin with, only because they aren't JWs. So I figured then that either 1) God would read hearts not religions at Armageddon, or 2) God was unloving while demanding love himself and, in that case, he could kill me because I didn't want to live forever under his rule.
Christina, your comments left me a little speechless. From belief in God to disliking God to not being sure of or feeling it's important "who or what God is" is quite a distance to travel. It makes me think that you, like many others, never got to fully understand who Jehovah is, how he thinks and how he feels. I'm sure that none of us are fully capable of understanding this. We do get to know him by what he reveals about himself in the scriptures and by seeing how Jesus lived his life.
I don't know whether you have any Witness contacts or not, but may I suggest a bit of reading for you? It couldn't hurt and it might help you to get some incite and a better perspective. Last summer the book Draw Close to Jehovah was released. It goes into Jehovah's four attributes of love, wisdom, justice and power and how Jehovah balances the four in his dealings with people. If you can get hold of this book it is worth reading.
I would have emailed you, but I see that it is locked. I hope that you see this post.
reubenfine

Jonadab,
I guess I am trying to understand so that I can help those who have been hurt or are drifting away.
I'll give you mine. I was reported to 3 circuit overseers, counseled by elders wrongly, had scriptures misapplied to me (even by WT standards), had an unethical investigation into my past in person by an elder who travelled 2500 miles, then was invited to include a letter to the society stating my position. (The elders wrote to Brooklyn to find out how do deal with me; how about with love?)
I offered anyone $1000 to prove me wrong either legally or scripturally. I typed a 4-page letter quoting the US Supreme Court, US Constitution, statutes, and the Bible. It was all shot down with one sentence, "We are familiar with your position and consider it unreasonable," although I had to lie to go along with theirs. I was subsequently a black sheep although never df'd. My good name was slandered to the whole body of elders. EVERY ONE of the whole body of elders accepted Brooklyn's reasoning although not one law or scripture was quoted proving me wrong.
I wrote back and applied Jesus' counsel, demanding an apology. Of course, I didn't expect one from such arrogant assholes, but I did my part. The elders lated asked if I was "having a bad day."
Now I get on my knees and thank God that they treated me like a cancer because I wouldn't lie or violate my conscience. It wasn't just ONE OR TWO ELDERS, but the WORLD HEADQUARTERS that opened my eyes with their TOTAL LACK OF LOVE. Now I actually get to use my brain, what there is left of it, and think for myself. The sad part is I wasted 40 precious years preaching for a lying, corrupt, evil "organization." Thank God, thank God, THANK GOD I have nothing more to do with that POOR excuse for Christianity.
ESTEE

To Jonadab the lurker
Re: Your comment
Revelation about some of those 7 congregations it seems that there was trouble back there too .. Jehovah and Jesus knew what was happening and would correct matters in their own time.
The Waiting-On-Jehovah crap is pure garbage. That is propaganda which excuses dysfunctional behavior in congregations to continue indefinitely, with no one taking responsibility to stop it. In other words, according to jw philosophy, it is okay to have every kind of filth go on and turn a blind eye to it, including child abuse, wife abuse, incest, alcoholism and any number of hurtful behaviors. So-called investigations go on internally by a committee of elders, then the evidence is buried in a file somewhere, supposedly handled by these trusted elders how functional is that? Or how legal is that? No one in the congregations are allowed to question the elders judgments or decisions.
The only good thing about you being here is that hopefully one day your eyes will open to the real truth of the jws namely they are a brainwashed cult. I hope you will be able to extricate yourself from that dysfunctional organization good luck!
Re: Your comment
I'm sorry to disappoint you Ozzie, but I have no doubts and that is not why I lurk.
You have no doubts because you are TOLD you have no doubts. Besides, if you dared to have doubts, you would be marked and thereafter you would be watched suspiciously by the elder body and anyone else in the congregation who knew of your doubts. Soon no one would associate with you. Then you would know what isolation is. The jw organization is an organization of control and fear.
If you want to educate yourself on the real insides of the organization from the top down, you may wish to read Crisis of Conscience.
As for lurking, I was too full of jw fear to lurk. I was disfellowshipped for about a year before I peered suspiciously into a chat room. Im glad I did, though because I found people who were thinking like myself. I realized how damaged I was by the jws, being born and raised into that phylosophy. I knew no other way to live. What really got me into the chat room was I was hurting because my children would not speak with me as soon as they found out I was disfellowshipped. I found other people who were abandoned by their children, and these people supported me and helped me to understand and cope with the pain of my childrens mistreatment of me. I was able to successfully do a belief shift and heal from the pain of the abondonment. I will do everything now in my power to help others like myself.
Oh, one final comment all lurkers are breaking their own jw rules, because they are not supposed to be in these forums or in these chatrooms however I am glad to see that they are thinking independently. Fortunately their elders dont know about their callous rule-breaking, or they would be marked in a hurry!!!
Shhhhh!!!!!!!
Don t worry, lurkers! I will keep your dirty little secret!!!
ESTEE_TX
Simon

Jonadab
Could you name a few provabe things that the WTS has been right and consistent about with regards to belief and doctrine? Other than vague notions of christianity such as "Jesus is the son of God".
Shouldn't there be reams of stuff that can't be disputed if they truly are the right religion?
Also, please tell us what they would have to do or not do to convinve you that they are not the true religion they claim ... or are you saying you will blindly follow them no matter what?
Edited by - Simon on 19 December 2002 2:32:13
jesussaves

Jonadab,
Eli and his sons were executed by God. If the Governing Body is executed by God, then maybe I'll consider coming back to the hall (just kidding)!
The JW logic is completely flawed. I know, because I used that stupid logic on many occasions. I heard myself sounding like an idiot, yet continued on. I've pointed out many travesties of justice committed by elders, and I get the standard response from my family, "There are imperfect men in the organization, but it is still the truth"
Jonadab, can you please explain to me how the majority of the whole can be corrupt, but the entire whole thought of as clean and pure? I believe that there is a such thing as true Christianity. It doesn't involve denomination or church membership. It involves being a follower of Christ.
I am happier NOW than I ever was as a JW. As a JW, Jehovah was a mean, judging God that didn't answer my prayers as a child or as an adult. As a Christian, Jehovah is my provider, my help, my righteousness.
My family wants to believe that I'm unhappy. My sister even goes as far as inventing things! I think most active JWs want to believe that X-JWs are unhappy and depressed. As a JW, I was suicidal and depressed.
deddaisy

Jonadab, it looks like you've had alot of questions asked of you. Don't worry, LOL, I don't have any questions. I'm just responding to your last post so you know that I saw it. I could go on and on about why I would never consider walking into a Kingdom Hall again, but I'll spare us both. I do want to clarify a bit though, only because you sounded almost shocked by what I said. First, it seems almost ironic, funny actually, because in my second post I stated that the original problem which I encountered as a non-baptized publisher, being raised from 9 years old in the "truth," was:
When I began reading the Bible without the WTS "aids," I found myself with sincere questions. Yet when I would seek sincere answers, I would be directed to yet another WTS publication...
and in your latest reply to me you stated:
I don't know whether you have any Witness contacts or not, but may I suggest a bit of reading for you? It couldn't hurt and it might help you to get some incite and a better perspective. Last summer the book Draw Close to Jehovah was released
Do you see what I mean? (It's not your fault, I did it too as a Witness, without even realizing it at first.) I had sincere questions when I read the Bible on its own because it didn't jive with the WTS literature alot of the time ! Then I was directed not to read the Bible without the aid of WTS publications ! Only when I got away from WTS literature did I feel like I was sincerely understanding.
All my siblings are still Witnesses. My parents have both passed away. My father was df'ed, reinstated, than da'ed himself. He died very, very unexpectedly. I believe if not for my brother's small children, my brother would've committed suicide after my father's death. Because the guilt of shunning his own father, to the point of having his dad not attend his wedding because it would make the "brothers" uncomfortable, was too much for him. And why Jonadab, why so much hurt ? Because the WTS told my JW family, and all the friends to shun him. Why ? Because he had been seen smoking a cigarette. At this time, unknown to the elders, my dad's business was going bankrupt, and then my mother's tumor was diagnosed as cancer. After hearing the news, my father bought a pack of cigarettes, smoked a few of the pack and threw the rest away. One of the "sisters" was behind him in line at the convenience store and most likely told. It doesn't really matter. He was df'ed, not for the smoking, but for not having the "right attitude." I'm beginning to ramble, so I'll end by letting you know that my father turned to the Bible for comfort. He found it, but no longer accepted the WTS. He was reinstated only to be able to communicate with his children, but was then going to be df'ed for apostacy for discussing his beliefs, it was then that he da'ed himself. And it goes on and on and on. The WTS running lives, dictating who members will associate with, how they will spend their time, what they will read, what they will be, who will live, who will die. "So and so can't be in her sister's wedding because she's not baptized," on and on...... such hurt over decisions that the WTS should not be a part of.
One more thing and I'll be gone. You said:
Christina, your comments left me a little speechless. From belief in God to disliking God to not being sure of or feeling it's important "who or what God is" is quite a distance to travel. It makes me think that you, like many others, never got to fully understand who Jehovah is, how he thinks and how he feels.
I believed in God, this loving father that lived up in the clouds, as a kid. I had a wonderful feeling regarding God as a kid. My mother gave me a good, yet open for thought, spiritual foundation. It was after I began attending meetings as a 9-year-old when my father became active in the JWs that made me begin to question God's love! It was what I heard at the meetings, what I read in the literature ! A God that would destroy good but imperfect people simply because they weren't JWs ? My friends? My grandmother ? This is when I didn't even know if I liked this God. How is it possible that a perfect God can break one of the commandents that he handed down to imperfect man to keep? That commandment being, "Though Shall Not Kill." Yet this perfect God is going to break his own commandment by killing imperfect creatures for not keeping these very commandments? Let's even say they kept the commandments, he would KILL them for not being JWs?
No Jonadab, I do believe in a god, I just am not sure what form, or name this god goes by. But I have complete faith that this god knows what he is doing. And I feel secure not knowing all the mysteries of this great one. Everything is not for us to know. It is enough to live this life, to appreciate this life and not treat it as if it is a dress rehearsal for the "new system." I am much more spiritual now than I ever was as a Witness. And as I said before, I don't have to know each and every one of god's plans, I have faith that he knows better than I, even without the WTS directing him.
This is a link to a cover of the Watchtower. This is like the illustrations that I remember as a Witness kid. Nice God, nice religion. So tell me, do you think the children that see their parents slaughtered by "God" in Armageddon will be smiling with these JW survivors? Sure, just hand them a shovel and a mask like the workers at the WTC, welcome to a perfect world.....
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42640&site=3
Edited by - deddaisy on 20 December 2002 2:43:8
Jonadab

Hi Christina. Yes, I did get a lot of questions didn't I. I will get around to responding, but my time online is limited at the moment, so please bear with me.
Christina, you said...
When I began reading the Bible without the WTS "aids," I found myself with sincere questions. Yet when I would seek sincere answers, I would be directed to yet another WTS publication...
... and then I went and suggested another WTS publication to read. I see what you're saying, but I still think it is a good book and it would help to give you a better incite into the matter. If anything it will guide you to the scriptures and you can look them up in your own copy of the Bible and decide for yourself.
I do remember that Watchtower cover you provided the link to and I do see how many would find it 'disturbing'. But answer a question for me or for yourself. If it was God's original purpose to have mankind live forever in a beautiful home on earth and his purpose has not changed, how could this be accomplished if wickedness was not removed? Think back to the flood of Noah's day. Doesn't Matthew 24:37-39 say, "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." It wasn't so much that everyone was wicked and evil, but that they were so caught up in their everyday lives they had no time for their Creator. Doesn't God deserve our consideration, our attention and love if he is the one we owe our very lives to? Doesn't God have the right to preserve life and take a life that he has created?
Jehovah doesn't enjoy destroying people. He wants all to live. Think of how he sent prophet after prophet to plead with the Israelites. At Ezekiel 33:11 he said to them, "As I am alive," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, "I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?"
We don't look forward to seeing anyone die at Armageddon either. There are many basically good people in the world today. I'm sure there were in Noah's day too. We have family and friends, workmates, schoolmates, neighbors and many others we meet on a daily basis who we would like to see enjoy life forever in a beautiful earthly paradise. But where are you going to draw the line at who enjoys this future and who doesn't? I wouldn't want to be the one who makes this decision and I dare say that most of us don't want to be in that position either. I'm glad that Jehovah has set the standards, can read what is in our hearts and is in the position to judge righteously. Jehovah is the 'potter' and we're the 'clay'. It's his decision and he has the right.
I still think you should read that book.
Edited by - Jonadab on 20 December 2002 18:35:10
Jonadab

Hello jesussaves.
Jonadab, can you please explain to me how the majority of the whole can be corrupt, but the entire whole thought of as clean and pure? I believe that there is a such thing as true Christianity. It doesn't involve denomination or church membership. It involves being a follower of Christ.
I don't believe that 'the majority of the whole' is corrupt. The majority of brothers and sisters I have met over many, many years in the truth are fine examples of what Christians should be. I also have seen that the majority of elders try their level best to do their job out of love for the brothers. I have known the other kind too and they are in the minority by a long shot. I guess you were using hyperbole.
How would you see Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:19, 20 being accomplished if it was not done in an organised way? Even the first century Christians were organised into congregations. Paul gave the counsel at Hebrews 10:23-25 to 'not forsake the gathering of ourselves together'. How would Christians get together to upbuild and encourage one another if they never met together? Being a follower of Christ means not only believing what Jesus taught, but following his example and obeying his commands.
As a JW, Jehovah was a mean, judging God that didn't answer my prayers as a child or as an adult.
I would recommend that you read the same book I told Christina about. I'm sure that it would give you a totally different outlook on what the Bible has to say about Jehovah.
SPAZnik

Jonadab,
I've been observing your respectful delivery/representation of your position. Your manner seems respectful to others.

I'm wondering though, how you rationalize disobeying the society's encouragement to stay away from sites like this.
Aren't the F&D slave class Jehovah God's representatives on earth? If they say don't come to sites like this, isn't
that like Jehovah God saying that? By coming here to do your preaching work aren't you then disobeying Jehovah?
Or perhaps they don't outright say don't go there, they just say beware? Is it like a gray area?
Kinda like being alone with someone you are dating?
I'm also wondering if and how you count your time spent preaching here? Do you count the amount of time it takes to compose your posts, or the amount of time it takes an average person to read your posts? Or do you report it at all?

SPAZ (colour-me-innately-curious-too klass)

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