Lurkers

by Yizuman 91 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  deddaisy

  jonadab, you said:

  But answer a question for me or for yourself. If it was God's original purpose to have mankind live forever in a beautiful home on earth and his purpose has not changed, how could this be accomplished if wickedness was not removed?

  If this was, and is God's purpose, then I agree wickedness would have to be removed. We would then have to define "wickedness." The WTS's definition of wickedness is any person that does not agree with it's doctrines. I do not agree with this definition.

  For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." It wasn't so much that everyone was wicked and evil, but that they were so caught up in their everyday lives they had no time for their Creator.

  So if one is eating, drinking, getting married, or giving their child in marriage, which I believe are all gifts of life, it means one is not spiritual, doesn't help others, cannot possibly be leading a decent life ? And when God flooded and destroyed all that "wickedness," which by the way included slaughtering babies while preserving two swine, why didn't God set about restoring paradise at that time ? Too convenient, maybe there should be yet another population brought about to suffer, only to be destroyed?

  Doesn't God deserve our consideration, our attention and love if he is the one we owe our very lives to?

  I most certainly agree that the one I owe very life to deserves my love. And I, along with many people other than JWs, are most appreciative of this life, even if this were to be the only life we were given. It makes no difference if it's 30 years of life, or eternity, I would live my life in the same way, with an appreciation and humbleness. How about nurses that spend their lives in Third World Countries in order to care for dying children and the elderly? Who is anyone to say or believe that they don't have a true love for God or life just because they are not of your faith ? They are not JWs, therefore according to your religion, they will be slaughtered at Armageddon. Do you truly believe this to be a Christ-like attitude ?

  Doesn't God have the right to preserve life and take a life that he has created?

  I agree God can do whatever he wants. So do you feel that I have the right to take my child's life because I gave it to her ? How about a right to get an abortion?

  But where are you going to draw the line at who enjoys this future and who doesn't? I wouldn't want to be the one who makes this decision and I dare say that most of us don't want to be in that position either. I'm glad that Jehovah has set the standards, can read what is in our hearts and is in the position to judge righteously.

  You can't have this both ways Jonadab. On one hand you say that Jehovah is in the position to judge, but on the other hand you allow the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to instruct you to believe that if one is not a Witness one will die at Armageddon, which is right around the corner. If that is not "judging," what is ? And Witnesses go along with this, saying nothing !

  There are some truly decent people in the "world," just as there are some truly decent people that are Witnesses. This is the point, the WTS would have one believe that it is cut and dry. If one is not a Witness, they cannot possibly know God or be a spiritual person. They have Witnesses convinced that to abandon the WTS is to abandon God. This is utter nonsense and self righteousness and a, successful I might add, attempt to its members. You sound like a thinking, sincere person, you should check into the history of the religion you practice. pyramids, etc. better yet, ask someone in the hall. I bet they don't even know !

  peace, christina

  Edited by - deddaisy on 20 December 2002 22:7:34

  Edited by - deddaisy on 20 December 2002 22:27:48
• 

  jesussaves

  Jonadab,

  You ignored what I said about Eli and his sons. Also, the only book I need to read to learn about God is the Bible. Thank you.
• 

  Jonadab

  jesussaves said:

  Eli and his sons were executed by God. If the Governing Body is executed by God, then maybe I'll consider coming back to the hall (just kidding)!

  I didn't think that it required a response or that you were looking for one. If this is what it would take to get you to come back to the Kingdom Hall I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

  the only book I need to read to learn about God is the Bible

  Acts 8:26-36

  
  27 With that he rose and went, and, look! an Ethio'pian eunuch, a man in power under Canda'ce queen of the Ethio'pians, and who was over all her treasure. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28 but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: "Approach and join yourself to this chariot." 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: "Do you actually know what you are reading?"31 He said: "Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?" And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: "As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth."

  34

  In answer the eunuch said to Philip: "I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?" 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus. 36 Now as they were going over the road, they came to a certain body of water, and the eunuch said: "Look! A body of water; what prevents me from getting baptized?"

  From the scripture above it is evident that the Ethiopian man had a knowledge of the scriptures and had access to them in order to read them for himself. This was not enough for him though. He needed guidance in order to properly understand them, so Philip was directed by Jehovah's angel to speak to the man. I believe that today the faithful and discreet slave class, through their governing body, is being guided by holy sprit to dispense this same understanding of scripture. If this comes in the form of the printed page instead of at the hand of an angelically-guided servant of Jehovah, then I don't see the difference. But, if you feel that all you require is your Bible and that you can go it on your own I wish you well in your endeavors.

  Spaznik said:

  I'm also wondering if and how you count your time spent preaching here? Do you count the amount of time it takes to compose your posts, or the amount of time it takes an average person to read your posts? Or do you report it at all?

  I do not count time for this. Until you mentioned it the thought had never even crossed my mind. I consider that the time I have spent here is mainly with those who would be considered spiritually weak or inactive. It is not my intention to debate with those who proudly refer to themselves as 'apostates'. I feel that would be a waste of my time and energy and would accomplish nothing.

  I'm wondering though, how you rationalize disobeying the society's encouragement to stay away from sites like this.

  Simon has offered this site as a public forum to discuss Jehovah's Witnesses and things Witness related. It is not advertised to be an apostate website, although there are those here who have been disfellowshipped for apostacy posting here. I am not in the habit of searching for sites to read apostate literature, but I will tell you that I am familiar with things that Ray Franz has written about. I am also familiar with Randy Watters and his story, as well as many other matters that are discussed in this forum. I do not have my head buried in the sand, as some may like to think. There may be bumps and warts on the trees if that is what you are looking for, but one also has to take the time to stand back to view the beauty of the forest.

  It is not my intention to be drawn into debates, nor do I consider that I have come here to 'preach'. The time I spend in the preaching work is done in the normal fashion. I go from door-to-door, return visits and I have a number of Bible studies also.

  I will tell you one of the reasons I have come here. I knew a young man who had been raised in the truth in a wonderful loving Christian home. His family is very active in the congregation. He had a few personality conflicts that he couldn't get past. They weren't anything of major concern. I talked to him about them at the time. It wasn't anything that I hadn't gone through myself. The fact of the matter is he began to spend a lot of his time online reading apostate material and dwelling on it to the exclusion of everything else. He tried to show his family and get them to read it also. It troubled him to the extent that it ruined his faith. All the things he had been taught by his parents went down the drain. He now saw nothing but the bumps and warts. I feel very bad about this. He was once a happy young man with a hope for the future. I feel bad that this happened to him. I guess I wanted in part to reach out to those who were going through a similar crisis as my young friend.

  I realise that most of you disagree with me, but I am glad that some have expressed appreciation for the respectful manner in which I am trying to present myself. I am trying to understand your feelings. In turn, hopefully, you will understand mine.

  I am trying to work backwards in responding to your questions. Please be patient with me. I am working on a reply to Simon.

  Edited by - Jonadab on 21 December 2002 14:27:45

  Edited by - Jonadab on 21 December 2002 14:28:46
• 

  Big Tex
• 

  outoftheorg

  Hello Jonadab.

  In reading your replies, I read where you say "ones relationship to jehovah is a personal one"

  "We need to read the bible to get a true understanding"

  The scriptures regarding Phillip and his witness to the soldier.This event did not require anyone other than philip, a man, the soldier, a man, and the angel, not a religious organization.

  None of these events In any way require a huge organization with a host of rules that you will be punished if you do not obey the organization.

  These were all PERSONAL in nature. If you were to truly put into action the words you spoke about, such as "we must read the bible to learn of Gods will" "my relationship with God is a personal one"

  You would be telling the wbts that you did not necessarily need them to guide you in your efforts to know God. You would be df'd for following this course of action.

  Outoftheorg
• 

  Nickey

  It's really sad that people would rather have false hope because they'd be suicidal otherwise.

  And this is so ironic because my mother is the SAME way. Wanting hope instead of the truth. If the hope they dreamed of turned out to be a different case, who's to say they wouldn't spin off into a depression?

  I was the same way. I was depressed but would always "use" the wt orignization as a lifeline. "Save me, give me hope. If you don't, I'd rather die." Hearing those talks pepped me up, hoping it would last me until next week. HOPE. That's what I had.

  The odd thing is, I've heard a Catholic say the same thing.

  "I know the bad in my religion and the mistakes made, but at least I have hope. A few mistakes doesn't make it false."

  Both JW's and Catholics etc have done bad things/mistakes... mistranslations, misquotes, un affiliations for ANY reason... etc....

  A JW will go "This is what you're religion did wrong" and a Catholic will go "Well this is what your religion did wrong." All proof is there and the score is even. Yet they both agree on one thing. "HOPE"

  One word missing is "TRUTH" are you seeking HOPE or TRUTH.

  Maybe BOTH the JW and Catholic are missing the MAIN lesson.

  A child sucking on sweet candy because it tastes good, yet not knowing that down the road, they'd have to deal with painful cavities.
• 

  rebel

  Hi Nickey,

  Interesting comment.

  I am an ex-Catholic and an ex-JW - you can imagine how mixed up I am!

  I totally agree with you that both religions have made a lot of mistakes. In my opinion, they are both responsible for a lot of pain also. I often think of going back to being RC. When I try to think what draws me to it, it all boils down to the fact that it is the religion of my childhood and feels comfortable - not a good enough reason really, is it?

  xxR
• 

  Nickey

  Exactly. It's like a "comfort zone". Many are too afraid to step out of that and they tend to use it like a pacifier.

  Being a JW gave me comfort and hope for the future. But I had to ask myself if that was the right thing to do. Just because it felt good, didn't make it right. False is false and sitting there spending your life trying to justify every wrongdoing proves that you are putting your faith in man rather than God himself. You're devoting your life to man when doing that.

  I made a joke one day after a meeting. I said, "If Jesus himself came to me and told me I was wrong to my face, I'd probably whip out a Watchtower and try to prove him wrong."

  Nobody laughed. Not even me. Because we all knew it was true. I really had to think about that...
• 

  waiting

  Man! I'm an x-catholic & x-jw too! Talk about dependent, insecure, wanting false hopes, yada yada!

  Some people need to live from crisis to crisis. Spooky families. Others need a hope of any kind to get them through the day. Guess that's what some people of faith cling to ------ a hope.

  So what if the WTBTS has been wrong in EVERYTHING they've ever predicted.........well, we have hope, now don't we? The next prediction could come true, huh?

  So what if the WTBTS has been wrong in EVERYTHING they've ever predicted.........well, they're just imperfect men. Imperfect men make mistakes - God doesn't. The next prediction will be God's if it comes true.....if it doesn't come true....well, it was imperfect men's....and they make mistakes.

  So what if the WTBTS has been wrong in EVERYTHING they've ever predicted.........well, they're STILL God's organization. And if you don't believe, you will be killed by God at Armageddon. And Armageddon is right around the corner - it's just "delaying" a little.

  Thus, proving Hope springs Eternal.

  To ALL THE NEW POSTERS & LURKERS..........WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!! We ain't so bad - damned good jokes here! And the information is accurate. If we learned nothing else as jw's - we learned to demand accurate information, giving complete references. Please swim all over the web.................The Truth Will Set You Free.

  waiting
• 

  reubenfine

  Jonadab,

  Oh, nevermind.