Believers and their "Free Will" Dogma

by JT 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  JT

  one of the most interesting dogmas found among believers is the concept called Free Will- on the surface it starts out sounding reasonable, until you start the ask questions and listen to the explanations that are given , after awhile you realize it has no legs to stand on.

  we are told by believers that god allows each person to make thier own choice and we are not robots and therefore we are able to exercise Free Will, the only problem is when you ask the question, What about when someone exercises thier Free Will and it harms someone else, why would a loving god allow someone the free will to hurt someone innocent, at that point free will sounds more like an excuse to give god a BYE in terms of having to do anything- i read this posters comment and i couldn't for the life of me see any logic or reasonablness behind the concept of Free will when folks get hurt like this person has-

  One of my earliest memories is of my grandfather raping me. I think I was 2, or maybe 3 years old. A few weeks (months?) later my father and some of his friends used me in the same way. I remember the pain was excruciating. Later that night I lay in bed with my pillow wrapped between my legs to stop the bleeding. I remember looking out my window (the shutters were open) and I saw a full moon. I prayed that night for God to make them stop hurting me. When they didn't, I thought it was my fault. For years I thought that perhaps God had no use for me since I was dirty. Eventually the rapes stopped and then I was left alone.

  I still believe in God.

  while this person indicated that they still believe in god and that is her right --her other comments are CHILLING--

  But I struggle with the knowledge that if he is all powerful and yet stands by while innocents are brutalized, how loving can he truly be? My head says one thing, but my heart says another. I remember the quiet desperation of reaching out to someone, anyone for help; and I remember the sadness of a plea ignored

  .

  If any believer can tell me why god allowed this to happen i will be in church this sunday-

  this is why i don't buy into the FREE WILL Dogma
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  donkey

  
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  Liberty

  You are so right JT. Free Will doesn't make any sense in a world full of people who are born blind, crippled, deaf, mentally ill, retarded, or who are made into violent criminals by biology and/or by abuse and neglect. None of these types of people chose anything freely. How could a truely just God condemn them? The older I get the more I realize that our choices are very limited and dictated by feelings or events we can't possibly understand or weigh properly. Often, I made a choice which seemed perfectly sensable only to have it later blow up in my face because I could not see all the future implications. The Universe is much too random a place for us to arrogantly think we can make all the right moves because there are just too many variables.

  The same Christians who so proudly believe in Free Will only believe what they believe because of the geographic accident of their birth place in a Christian culture. There was little or no choice involved because we don't freely weigh and chose our cultures. Had they been born to a family in Saudia Arabia they would be devout Muslims instead of Christians. I see no choice involved in these options. We are all products of things and events way beyond our control. There is no Free Will because the evidence is overwhelmingly against such a concept, especially as to one's religious beliefs and any God which held us responsible for all of our actions through such a concept (Free Will) would be insane since He is the One who set the whole thing up in the first place.
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  Sangdigger

  FREE, MORAL AGENTS......Thats what many religions say we are. Including the WTS. I think some now are dropping the Moral part. The Mormans say we have "Free Agency". As i stated on another post. We're not Free, (were under the curse of sin) Were not moral ( try going 5 minutes without thinking something negative or derrogatory. ok, maybe 10 minutes) And finally, Who are we agents of?

  I dont know where you stand on the Bible itself, but i agree with you totally in disagreeing with freewill. The scriptures are plain that man in his natural state is DEAD. It is also plain in its language about the condition of the heart naturally. "Out of the heart proceeds murders, thefts, adulteries, ect....." So basically in our natural state, the only freewill we have is to please the flesh wich many times results in henious crimes.

  However when given new life in Christ, the old man dies in a sense. We still carry around the old man, but we no longer live to please our flesh, but God. Rom.8:8 "The Carnal mind is enmity againts God" The word enmity is deep seated hatred.

  Anyway, i could go on, but thats the way i see it. Of course, i place my beliefs in what the Bible says. Like an old expression i heard years ago; Feelings come and feelings go, and feelings are decieving. I stand upon the word of God, nothing else is worth believing.

  Cheers
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  DannyBear

  Sangdigger,

  *** Feelings come and feelings go, and feelings are decieving. I stand upon the word of God, nothing else is worth believing.***

  Liberty had some very good thoughts as relates to your declaration. Why does your stance carry any more weight than a muslim who stands on the word of Allah and the koran?

  Just how did you come to your god and his word? Was it not by exposure to 'him' and 'it', saturated by the society you were raised in?

  Culture and ethnic background, has far more to do with what we believe, than any actual 'truth' or absolutes. Why is this so hard for 'beliver's' to comprehend? A very sincere question btw.

  Danny
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  Yerusalyim

  It's an age old question; how can a god who loves us allow bad things to happen to us? I have no answer, if someone says they do, they're lying. The only comfort I can find is that God didn't spare his own son from the exercise of free will.

  If free will is dismissed then either god is quite cruel and programs what will happen to us, or there is no god. Neither one of these are acceptable to me. One answer would change the god I beleive in so much as to make him unrecognizable, the other option would leave me with such a sense of hopelessness as to make life unbearable.

  My pain was nothing compared to yours, my abusers weren't as cruel as you've described. Still, my comfort comes partially in accepting that God is aware of and sorrowful about my pain and that he has some type of plan that I don't understand, that will, in the end, make sense.
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  JT

  Liberty says:

  There was little or no choice involved because we don't freely weigh and chose our cultures. Had they been born to a family in Saudia Arabia they would be devout Muslims instead of Christians. I see no choice involved in these options. We are all products of things and events way beyond our control

  great point i couldn't agree more- and it is amazing how most don't even stop to think about that one simple fact, instead of you being born in North West General Hospital in downtown Detroit as it were-- but out in some field of Iran that is the determining factor esp if you are only 6yrs old-

  most children in most cultures accept the belief systems of their parents esp if they are not introduced to any other
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  Sangdigger

  In anwser to your reply, i would simply quote 3 scriptures. Afterall, if i believe the bible is the word of God, then i would value what it says as worthy to explain the things that appear unexplainable.

  "Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD OF GOD."

  "How can they hear without a preacher" (sorry, i'm not close to a bible at the moment, so i cant quote the verse)

  "For it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that are lost"

  In other words, God uses preaching of his word to quicken the hearts of dead sinners. Without God in this life and the hope of eternal life, i would be as the apostle Paul said "I am of all men most miserable". If i thought that this life is all there is, and God didnt care one way or the other (assuming i believed in a Supreme being), then i'd live like theres no tommorow.

  To anwser yerusalym: IF i interpret the scriptures correctly, this is how i would sum it all up:

  All men are born dead degenerate sinners in the sight of God. The good we measure is only good in our eyes not Gods. No one (exept for Jesus) ever pleased God by what he did. Anyone that God has ever saved or ever will save is strictly saved by Gods Grace alone. So if God had not sent a ransom, all would have perished in eternal punishment.

  I would call that love even if he chose to save just one person in 3 billion. Afterall, what does he owe anyone? Everyone deserves death and seperation from God myself included. So what about the suffering experienced in this life? Well since we are born in sin, and carry around sinful bodies is it any wonder that we live in pain, suffer from sickness, not to mention the violence man does to each other?

  If you have a problem with what i just said, Look at Romans chapter 9, Paul breaks it all down when he talks about God having mercy on some and leaving others to perish. He says "Is there unrighteousness with God? God Forbid!!

  So yes, i was born around christianity, although im the only one in my entire immediant family who does not claim to be a JW anymore. So what? What if God chose not to save alot of people in China? Is there unrighteousness with God?

  GOD DOES NOT OWE ANYBODY ANYTHING

  Sincerely, James
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  NameWithheld2

  What if God chose not to save alot of people in China? Is there unrighteousness with God?

  GOD DOES NOT OWE ANYBODY ANYTHING

  Yes there is. If that is your god I want nothing to do with him, and I do hope that he kills me, cause I don't want to live in a world of people who feel like that.

  It is absurd to beleive that 'god' only favors people based on their religious affiliation, which thereby makes it absurd to believe in a god that requires worship. If there is a 'god' or whatever you want to call it (It call him Sky-Daddy) and this mess of different races, beliefs, religions, and entire lack of direction in human affairs makes him a piss-poor landlord.

  As for him not oweing anybody anything, maybe that's true, but that means I owe him even less.

  I mean, let me get this right. I get some dogs and breed them. I am their god. Because I provide them food and shelter, that gives me the right to allow some to die slowly from disease, bad conditions, etc? The right to pick some to care for and some to kill? Some to torture? Some to play mind games with? After all I don't OWE them anything. They owe me everything right?

  If you are right, than I am a better person than god.

  Your god sucks.
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  JT

  It is absurd to beleive that 'god' only favors people based on their religious affiliation, which thereby makes it absurd to believe in a god that requires worship. If there is a 'god' or whatever you want to call it (It call him Sky-Daddy) and this mess of different races, beliefs, religions, and entire lack of direction in human affairs makes him a piss-poor landlord.

  i understand your comments above to the poster but then look at it this way, you see when a person is confronted with sound logic thier only option is to come out swing with some off the wall stuff like he said and like you stated it makes his god look absurd, from his own bible it says god loves all, you question a beliver why god cuts some folks short and the next thing you know a beliver is stating GOD DON'T OWE YOU NOTHING

  and the reason is they can not explain what they really believe in

  great post man