Believers and their "Free Will" Dogma

by JT 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  JT

  "Y"

  I would like to comment on what you have said and i hope that you don't take this as me trying to dog you as it were, but merely for you to think long and hard about what you have said and what you believe=

  It's an age old question; how can a god who loves us allow bad things to happen to us? I have no answer.

  now think about this- here is a question that carries with it tremedous ramiifcations and yet you don't know the answer, (not only you but the rest of us as well) the bible gives no answwer,

  yet if i were to ask What material were the "Drawers" that the high priest to wear made of you could tell me, so a god would provide such detail on whether the priest wore Fruit of the Loons or Tommy Heilfiger- yet something that impacts us everyday pain hurt and suffering the bible is silent-

  Just looking at the great details of the OT in all thier instructions rules policies and procedures and yet the most important questions in the universe there is not even an answer-- that is so sad-

  you continue by saying--

  If free will is dismissed then either god is quite cruel and programs what will happen to us, or there is no god. Neither one of these are acceptable to me. One answer would change the god I beleive in so much as to make him unrecognizable, .

  About 2 yrs ago i was where you are now, I -- like so many other former jw here were faced with the same options that you speak of in the post above and like you NEITHER WERE ACCEPTABLE,

  THE problem is it did not change the fact that my god was suppose to be loving and folks were still getting the shaft and yes it reached the point where as you stated "make him unrecognizable"

  while in wt many of us spent years trying to justify and explain the unexplainable and after awhile we reached to point were we had to accept the fact that wt shafted us, no paradise, no fig trees , no returning to day of youth-

  so i fully understand the reason why so many like yourself just hate to look at the man in the mirror, it does destroy our wonderful image of a loving god, when we look at the scene behind the curtain,

  but you stated:

  the other option would leave me with such a sense of hopelessness as to make life unbearable

  .

  and that simply is NOT TRUE your comment reminds me of a jw who tells somone who is leaving THERE IS NO LIFE OUTSIDE OF THE ORG- YOUR LIFE IS MEANINGLESS

  yet when you leave the org you see yes there is life outside of the org and for many people they perfer to say to themselves god will hook folks us in time i just got to wait, well if that is what one wants to believe fine-

  but all i can say is i would perfer to accept the truth and not live my life trying to explain or accept things i fully know MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL- by telling myself god has so plan

  just my 2
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  SixofNine

  Good topic JT. I have been thinking of starting a topic titled "Free Will, the Sienfeld of Godly Qualities".

  Remember how Sienfeld is a show about "nothing"?

  Free Will is nothing. It is a ridiculous concept, givin a modicum of thought. It is the default state we live in strike that, saying that gives it even more credence than it deserves.

  Human will has a degree of freeness, givin our conciousness and our intellect. But even in that context, it ain't much, after all, a psychotic retard is born a slave to their own weaknesses. And so it is with the rest of us.

  A baby given no food has no chance to practice "will", free or otherwise. They simply die in their agony.

  What most people are describing when they say free will, is just the default state of mankind. They act as if they've said something heavy when they say "God didn't have to give us free will". Uh, actually, he did. There is no optional "other-than-free-will" state of being. Some will say "he could have made us robots". Uh, no, he couldn't have made us robots. Then we would be robots, not humans.

  What he could have done was left us as chimps, then our dinner parties would not be filled with these long, obtuse discussions about "free will" and would instead be a place for joyful feces flinging and thoughtful bug picking and partner grooming.

  Edited by - SixofNine on 10 December 2002 21:40:59
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  ballistic

  Six, I completely disagree with you, for instance, tonight, I had the free will to down several bottles of fine wine. hmmmm, oh yeah, ha!
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  JT

  6 of 9

  great post
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  SixofNine

  me thinks you had no choice
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  SwedishChef

  2 Timothy 3:1-7 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." Why does God allow these things to happen? Why does He allow blasphemers, unholy, and fierce people to go about doing the things that they do? I am not going to lie to you and say I understand the mind of God, but one must understand that God does not owe a person anything. We are by nature a sinful and rebellious race which time and time again likes to shake its fist in the face of a Holy and Righteous God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." God, full of mercy, love and compassion, sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. To shed His precious blood so that whosoever believes on Him may have everlasting life. Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he [Jesus] humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Who is to shake their fist in the face of the Lord? The suffering anyone goes through on this earth cannot compare the suffering the Lord Jesus Christ went through for us. His friends cowardly fled away when Jesus was captured and betrayed. Peter even denied he knew Jesus. The Lord was betrayed and taken before the judges. He was mocked, lied against, and sentenced to be crucified. He was whipped with a reed, spit upon, His beard pulled out, a crown of thorns placed on His head. He was lead out to be crucified, too weak to carry his own cross. When at the top of the hill, He was stripped, His hands and feet were nailed onto two planks of wood, and He was left to writhe in pain while being mocked, spit on, and His garments gambled with. During that period of time, the Lord Jesus took upon Himself the sins of His people, the very wrath of God which we deserved was being poured without mercy on the Lord Jesus. He faced agony that cannot be related to with words, separation from the Father! And yet while he was hanging there taking upon this burden, He prayed and said "Father forgive them, for they no not what they do." He was speaking of the very people He came to save. The Lord Jesus is the mighty champion of the cross, the Sovereign Lord and Savior. And you dare to say that there is unrighteousness with Him? to excuse your unbelief by saying, "well, I just dont understand why this and this happened"? The Word of God says "thou are inexcusable, O man." God knows all the trouble you go through, He sees your need for a Savior; that is what the sacrifice at Calvary was all about. Isaiah 53:3-6 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Come to Jesus today: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28 )

  Edited by - SwedishChef on 11 December 2002 15:24:4
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  NameWithheld

  Whatever Swedyboy - you can spout bible scripture all you want. Maybe you even realize somewhere in that skull of yours that we really don't care what the bible says about itself. We've already dismissed the bible as nothing more than yet another holy book written by man to help opress his fellow man. You can spout bible, koran, book of morman, whatever you want.

  BTW, your 'last days' scripture was very applicable, say, in the 1400's. I wonder - are we still in the last days since then?

  And I just wanted to remind you that if you don't start kissing Hank's ass, not only will you not get a million $$$ when he gets back to town, he will probably kick your ass too. It says so in the list Hank wrote. And we KNOW that that list is true!
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  Calvinist02

  You say "Believers and their 'Free Will' Dogma" Well, I'm not one of those believers then. I am a believer who believes that I am a horrible sinner, who is now set free from the bondage of sin. I have only been set free by the Grace and mercy of God. He chose me to be His follower, He called me to Himself. God granted me repentance and has given me His very Word, for me to live by.

  Nowhere in there did I say anything about what I have done, only what Christ has done for ME.

  How exactly are you defining "free will" anyways? Is it that we have the right to choose God or not? That we can do anything we want? Or what?

  If we have a certain "free will" then change into a bird. You can't. But you want to, but wait-- your WILL doesn't allow you to.-- we can't have that free will.

  We (before saved) are dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1). Dead people are capable of doing nothing. So we can, spiritually do nothing. So, because we are dead in our sins, we can't choose God.

  We can do no good. (Rom. 3:10-14) In the world's eyes we can do a lot of good things, but in God's eyes every intention is bad. So, would you say that choosing God is considered "good"? Yes. But, we can do no good- so we can't choose Him.

  There just can't be a biblical explanation for free will.
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  Pete2

  SwedishChef, when you wrote --

  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, incontinent, ...

  ... were you referring to 6o9's chimpanzee-fecal flinging illustration?

  Pete2

  PS: Ain't nuthin' "freewill" -- ya' gotta pay fer it by the inch!
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  Sangdigger

  The last days started before the 1400's im afraid. James says in his epistle it was the last days. And that was around 2000 years ago. But God is not slow as some consider slow respecting his promise. A day to God is as a Thousand years to us. And he would have cut it short exept for the sake of his elect.

  Many gods have been invented in the history of man. Mans severe depravity causes him to seek a god out. It doesnt have to be carved with hands. It is their god of their own lusts. And in doing so, they seek to glorify their own self, because worshipping the Creator, would strip them of their own pride. In the WTS, the god worshipped is the god of works and self-righteousness. The god of middle eastern religions is generally a god of mindless ceremonies and works as well. Will worship. Touch not, taste not , handle not. My God that i worship is a God of Grace. For he sent his own son who painfully took my sin upon him, so that i would not be punished for it. As the Chef said, no one on earth will ever suffer the way he did.

  Did he choose me because of my own "freewill" or merit? Hardly not. then it would not be of grace. As Calvinist02 said, dead people are not capable of doing anything. A dead man cant wiggle his finger. But God who is rich in mercy saved us and called us before the world began!!!! 2Tim 1:9 Not by works of righteousness wich we have done, but by his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5

  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall recieve remission of sins. Acts 10:43 REPENT AND BELIEVE. SALVATION IS AT HAND.