Free will is that spark of thought. It comes with consciousness. it gives us the ability to choose our path. For those of you who still hold to a belief in a creator then you probably are aware of why we are in such a deprived state. We were not given a fair chance in the beginning. Satan in his rebellion decided to use us as bait in his evil plan of rebellion. He too had the ability to choose and unfortunately took the path without God. We are living in that aftermath. I look forward to be given the chance in the future to prove my ability to choose wisely without the chains of human imperfection and evil binding me. I look forward to a world without evil and imperfection. Is this impossible? I choose to take a chance.... unless someone has a better idea to fix all this.
Believers and their "Free Will" Dogma
by JT 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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clash_city_rockers
Mans free will is inslaved to sin and he is totally dependant on the grace of god to save him.
Man has no ability to seek God
Romans 3:10-11
10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.It is not dependant on man's will but God alone to change his wicked and evil heart. thus we are born again by god and not our free will to make a decision for him.
Order of Salvation
Election----->Regeneration/Effectual Calling----->Faith/Repentance----->Justification----->Sanctification------>Glorification
John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 9:11:18
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [ 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's will or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
So it is God who makes us alive unto faith. To have free will in man's ability to seek the things of God and his salvation is to make salvation not of grace and thus make salvation of marit.
jr
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 12 December 2002 6:50:14
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clash_city_rockers
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter IX
Of Free Will
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
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JT
Swedishchief says:
I am not going to lie to you and say I understand the mind of God,
now let''s translate this statement, here we have a user who is being honest in saying:
"I don't know what the He!! I'm talking about cause I can't explain all that stuff in the bible"
so at least he admits he don't know what he is talking about and i can respect that, but the problem is after admiting that he then goes on to try and explain something that he just admitted to he knows not what he is talking about-
so what that means is HIS OPINION on an issue has no more or less weight than anyone elses- yet he like many others can't seem to grasp that-
how many times have we read in the Questions from Readers when the Society says
"The bible does not say anything about so and so" and yet they will proceed to make comments that cover 3 pages on a subjected they just admitted the bible doesn't address
in other words even though the bible says nothing, WE GOT SOMETHING TO SAY ON THE MATTER
and that is what this poster has done in my view- i have no problem when a persons give thier opinion, but i do have a problem when they give thier opinion and expect others to accept it absolute truth and if you or i reject it THEIR GOD WILL KILL US - that argument is so weak it is sad-
you admit you don't know what you are talking about by saying i don't know what the mind of god is, when the bible is suppose to be able to provide that information for you and it doesn;'t - then you come up with what you THINK the mind of god is on this or that issue and then proclaim as wicked anyone who doesn't agree with you-
you can line up 10 christian give them the same text and they all come up with 10 different answers and they are all suppose to be correct and anyone who disagrees is to be put to death
that mindset is so sad, but we see it all the time
I don't have to "INVOKE" that the 'gods' will kill you cause you don't agree with my views , yet you "Invoke" the gods to kill me cause i don't agree with you- how sad
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Sangdigger
Clash city rocker, good post!! The key to understanding "freewill" is clearly laid out in scripture. Satan, Adam and Eve all possesed freewill. But after the fall, man was plunged into spiritual death. One point that always stuck out in my mind was what God told Adam. "In the day that you eat, you will surely die" we know he died 900 and some odd years later physically, but he died spiritually that very day.
ONe thing that amazes me, is how most modern day religious organizations have gotton so far from the truth. We live in a society of freewill. And pride is the cheif ingrediant. Equality, equality, they cry. Its not fair!!! Why should he save one person, and pass by the next? They forget about what paul said in Romans, "Does not the potter have power over the clay to make one lump unto honor, and the other unto dishonor"? This is all based upon the notion that we merit some worth in Gods eyes. That there is something in us that would cause God to save us based upon this worth. That God maybe even owes us a second chance. But even if we did get a second chance, how long ago did i use that one up? According to the law given isreal, if you offend the law in the minutest detail, youre guilty of offending the entire law. That is why the law shows us Gods standards. Something we can never live by, and keep. Its like a light in a dark room. When you turn it on, it exposes whats in the room, but it doesnt remove it. The same can be said of our sins and the law. It exposes the sin, but doesnt remove it. Thats why Jesus came, fulfilled the law, and removed all of the ordinances againts us. Gods wrath fell upon him in the worst way imaginable, so he could secure salvation for his elect.
If modern day religion based upon freewill is correct, then salvation can be won by me one day, and lost by me the next, then maybe won again when the mood strikes. After all, the say, we can only get to heaven, (or the paradise earth) by pleasing God. What they dont realize is there is only one who pleased him and ever will. THE SON. Thank God its not up to me.
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SixofNine
Once again for the moral degenerates Nakedmvistar and Clash.
Free Will is the Sienfeld of Godly qualities (remember how Sienfeld is a show about "nothing"?)
Free Will is nothing. It is a ridiculous concept, givin a modicum of thought.
It is the default state we live instrike that, saying that gives it even more credence than it deserves.Human will has a degree of freeness, givin our conciousness and our intellect. But even in that context, it ain't much, after all, a psychotic retard is born a slave to their own weaknesses. And so it is with the rest of us.
A baby given no food has no chance to practice "will", free or otherwise. They simply die in their agony.
What most people are describing when they say free will, is just the default state of mankind. They act as if they've said something heavy when they say "God didn't have to give us free will". Uh, actually, he did. There is no optional "other-than-free-will" state of being. Some will say "he could have made us robots". Uh, no, he couldn't have made us robots. Then we would be robots, not humans.
What he could have done was left us as chimps, then our dinner parties would not be filled with these long, obtuse discussions about "free will" and would instead be a place for joyful feces flinging and thoughtful bug picking and partner grooming.
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Calvinist02
Clash city rocker- great post! I can't say much more that Sangdigger already did.
JT- Swedish Chef says:
I am not going to lie to you and say I understand the mind of God,
Why do you need to "interpret" that. It's black and white to me. He is just saying that he cannot fully comprehend the fullness of God. Not that He doubts His Truth, or that the Bible is just his opinion. I honestly don't know where you came up with that comment. He never once said
I don't know what the He!! I'm talking about cause I can't explain all that stuff in the bible"
He never said that he can't explain all that stuff in the Bible. I know he does know what he's talking about. Maybe somethings aren't as clear as crystal, but we try our best.
Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God
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Farkel
Why did these fundies always end up running around giving each other "high fives" when everything they say is total bullshit and doesn't even begin to address the arguments presented to them?
Six of nine said all there needs to be said about it, but I'll even make it simple for you:
The notion of humans having anything BUT free will is utter bullshit.
If they didn't have free will they wouldn't be human beings. It was no "gift" from a Creator. Free will is part of the package that makes humans "humans". Period.
What part of that simple concept is so hard for you to grasp?
Farkel
Edited by - Farkel on 12 December 2002 19:26:39
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ballistic
I totally agree. Thats all I can say because I was predetermined not to tell you any more.
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czarofmischief
Our free will is, of course, relative to things like biochemistry, genetics, acts of beings more powerful than us like God, Farkel. But I have the choice to kill you or not, depending on my mood. And I could be saved one day and not the next, depending on my headaches and whether I want Jesus TOUCHING me.
My own mental states are so varying that even doctors can figure them all out, so many things are often out of the bounds of rational choice for me. But it does exist. IT must, otherwise, God is merciless and meaningless.
CZAR of the "what the hell am I feeling NOW" class