What's Right about "Right?"

by Farkel 82 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  mommy

  Of course I must put in here my thoughts on this. In the parent child situation...Do as I say, Not as I do. This would be relevant if a parent taught a child it was wrong to smoke cigarettes, if he was smoking himself. But would be feasible if the parent told the 5 year old child he may not smoke, but smokes himself.
  As a parent I have heard my children challenge me, or the famous, "That's not fair!" How do they determine that my authority should be questioned? If they are to obey me and recieved their knowledge from me...How do I not meet up to their standards?
  Also a question I have....How does human logic even come close to the logic God has? In the Bible it says that God is the Judge of all mankind. Doesn't this then give him the right to make any decisions he wishes? If we can't fathom his power and authority...how can we understand him?

  OK before you tear this apart let me tell you something else. In my life I need God, I need the peace and comfort he gives me. Do I believe in the God of the bible? Well I pick and choose. I know this sounds awful, but I have developed a belief system that works for me.
  This time I have spent on the web and reading other's viewpoints has really been an eye-opener. Larc you helped me alot with this, you brought to my attention things I never even thought to question.THANKS
  When I left the org I swore I would never be tied down to a religion who would choose what doctrines I should believe in. The whole time emptying my pockets, stealing the joy of life, and spoon feeding me their beliefs. I am learning and growing everyday. I have come to realize that God may not really be outside of me, but a part of me I have named. One day I may have all the answers. But until then keep challenging me guys! I am loving all you from H2O, and the insight you bring
  wendy
• 

  Scorpion

  Farkel,

  You did not answer my questions, but avoided them with psychobable.
• 

  Farkel

  Scorpion (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!) said:

  : You did not answer my questions,

  I didn't want to embarass you, but since you insist:

  : but avoided them with psychobable

  Don't flatter yourself, dummy:

  :Being God gave us the logic we use, or do not use at times, who is that God that gave us logic?

  You answered your own question in the same sentence, you big dummy. "God gave us logic, so who was that God who gave us logic? It was THAT God who gave us the logic that THAT God gave us." DUH!

  : And how do you know that the logic one uses is of God?

  Logic exists aside and apart from God or anything else. Logic IS. There is no such thing as "God Logic", you idiot. Logic IS logic. Period. There is no psychobabble here. Logic is REASON and solid REASON is as immutable as God. Or is your version of God unreasonable and illogical? If so, you must be a dumb Christian twit. And if that is true, then pity you, dummy.

  Farkel
• 

  willy_think

  the problem with the parent child analogy is that as the child grows he/she will become equal to the parent, so he can expect to live by the same standards as the parant. this is not the case with god.

  standard being, somthing establised by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example
  
  there is no one to set the standard for god
  god is one of a kind so has no customs to follow
  one of a kind so no consent
  one of a kind so no one to set an example to, only lesser beings to give law to

  "If God defines the standard, it IS the standard. If he doesn't, then he is subject to another standard or he is subject to no standard."

  if god is the standard dy defining it, then what is not god, haveing defined all things
  
  god is singular and the word standard does not apply

  mommy,

  "Well I pick and choose. I know this sounds awful, but I have developed a belief system that works for me."
  it works for me too. if god is; god is beyond our understanding and expereince. all men have an imperfect knowledge of him, so he will know this and understand, hay! maby he will apply our own standards towards us not his standadrds at all. how did jesus say we would be judged?

  "be excellent to each other!" bill and ted's excellent adventure

  the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.
• 

  Moxy

  well, i dont think i will continue to argue this point with you farkel. for one, we seem to basically agree and second, its making my head hurt. you said to scorp basically the same thing i said to you, that a standard of logic and rationality exists that god follows, not because that standard is imposed on him from something external but because, as you put it, logic simply IS.

  i agree, however...

  there is a school of thought which says there may be more than one _kind_ of logic than that which we are familiar with, Boolean logic. this view is espoused by one of the great minds of our modern age, John von Neumann, as a possible interpretation of the apparent inconsistincies in our quantum universe. perhaps, he reasons, the concepts of 'and' 'either' 'not' are not universal. now, mind you, this is not a very popular theory today and, as i mentioned earlier, i am not a subscriber to it either. but there it is, i throw it out there just to be a smart-ass. thats what i do. im the mox.
• 

  Scorpion

  Farkel,

  You missed my point. I said, being God gave us the logic we use, or do not use at times, who is that God that gave us logic.

  According to the many belief systems we have, there are more than one God. I wanted to know what God gives you your logic, DUMMY!

  I also want to know why you find it in yourself to belittle those that may have a difference of opinion with you. Is this an insecurity problem you have?
• 

  Farkel

  : You missed my point. I said, being God gave us the logic we use, or do not use at times, who is that God that gave us logic.

  Her name is "Georgina" Or "Serendipity" or something.

  : According to the many belief systems we have, there are more than one God. I wanted to know what God gives you your logic, DUMMY!

  The black lady. See above.

  : I also want to know why you find it in yourself to belittle those that may have a difference of opinion with you. Is this an insecurity problem you have?

  Is that a "do you still beat your wife" type of question, or were you just born an idiot?

  Farkel
• 

  Scorpion

  Farkel,

  Sorry to interupt you while you are in the middle of your Green Eggs and Ham Dr. Seuss book.
• 

  terraly

  Hi Farkel,

  "Logic exists aside and apart from God or anything else. Logic IS. There is no such thing as "God Logic", you idiot. Logic IS logic. Period. There is no psychobabble here. Logic is REASON and solid REASON is as immutable as God"

  I'm with Moxy on this one- if we're questioning the nature of good and evil in the universe we should darn well be able to question the nature (or existence) of logic. The only problem of course, is that we would have to use logic to do, which makes the argument a bit tricky.

  However, like Moxy also said, quantum mechanics introduces us to a different sort of logic. In normal logic, one is forced to choose, either "the grass is green", or "the grass is not green". But this is not the way things appear to work on a quantum level (I say "appear", but it's fairly well supported by science and logic :) ). In QM, if you ask, "does a particle have momentum equal to m or equal to n prior to a measurement?", the answer is not "m" or "n", it is "both" (but particles can only have one value for momentum) or "neither" (the answer to this question is of some debate).

  I'm not necessarily arguing that nature is inherently illogical, all I am saying is that an alternative logic system is easy enough to think up. It's wierd, it's crazy, but it does appear to exist, so we have to deal with it.

  So I would say that it's no great feat to imagine a God who could have made QM-logic work on macroscopic scales. If I can imagine it, then I want it in my picture of an "all-powerful God", or he's surely not all-powerful (token nod to poor St. Anselm).

  My all-powerful God can assign arbitrary logic systems (it looks like some God/nature already chose to give us two), so I want my God to exist outside of logic (since he has created it). Well, in this case, gods get off the hook all over the place, because they are not subject to logic, so who cares if they don't make any sense/are illogical?

  It's a wimpy way out of the argument, but a valid one- and an important one to address. I think people in general get far too much mileage out of Quantum Mechanics (from people who don't know any of the deep math behind it), but it does have its uses in keeping us from getting pedantic and dogmatic about the awe-inspiring necessity and rightness of logic.

  Sorry to interrupt your flame war with Scorpion....
• 

  conflicted

  I dont think I expressed exactly what I was trying to say. So, I will try again. This is just my view - of course there is no way to prove it one way or another - that's what makes this whole topic a mystery.

  I stated that Our relationship with God in this context was "similar" to a parent/child relationship - not exactly the same, just similar. One of the differences would be what willy_think brought up - At some point the child grows up and adopts the standards of the adult, or makes up a standard of their own. In this case God has set a standard for us to live by and we will never attain a level where we can change God's law. At the same time, God can break the laws he has set forth (murder etc.) because he IS the standard and not subject to it where it pertains to His actions. What I mean is His standard for us is set in stone - we cannot change it, on the other hand, He defines His own standard, and therefore He IS the standard for His actions.

  Two different standards - one to which we as humans are subject to, and one by which God himself is defined. The problem we are having here is that we are trying to hold God to the standards He set forth for us, but I think that is presumptuous on our part. Nowhere is it written that God is subject to ANY rules because He IS the creator and can do whatever He wants irregardless of what He has commanded of us.