by StinkyPantz 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Being able to laugh at ourselves is a good sign. Means we are "looking in to the mirror" clearly, and see our souls for what they are. Silly most of the time.
Don't worry. JW's told you what would get you in or out. Dedicated manual readers (some sincere Christians) are telling you what would get you in or out. Don't worry about any of it. Continue your independent quest. My opinion.
Hey, Daddy-O as always, the greatest of love and peace to you! Check your email, hun.
Peace to you, too, Stinky-Girl and my sincerest apologies for the faux pas ! Truly. To respond to what you wrote to me, however, you said I refuse to keep a closed mind about things and prefer to thoroughly examine several perspectives. But in response to me to giving you my perspective you go on to say no one likes to be preached at or talked down to and thats how you write sometimes.
To that end, I would like to ask you to do as you say and KEEP an open mind here as well, as I am neither preaching nor talking down to anyone, and certainly not you. Truly, I am not that kind of person. I must ask you, then, to not read more into what I am permitted to post than I INTEND. How can you do that? Two ways: first, you can ASSUME that whatever I have posted would be SPOKEN (if we were in the same room), in a mild tone, with sincerity and most certainly with consideration, compassion... and truth. Here, however, I use caps, italics and such, so that you can hear the proper emphasis, as IF we were speaking, rather than writing. It's just my "style" is all, and no offense is intended, ever.
Second, if you have a question about my tone or motive, dear one, all you need do is ask (i.e., are you saying it SOUNDS like youre saying). And I will speedily clarify what I am saying, as well as how I am saying it, so as not to leave you in confusion or defense.
Now, regarding another interesting thing you wrote:
Yizuman and AGuest say 'no' I will most likely not be saved.
Well, Stinky-Girlfriend... I had to go back re-read what I posted, because for the LIFE of me, I could not believe I had said that, and if I didnt, how in the world you perceived that I had. So, I went back and reread, and THIS is what I posted:
Depends on your definition of "good". And if your definition is the same as God and Christ's ("Matthew 5:43-48), then yes, that would suffice to save you.
You, then, would have to look up that definition to determine whether yours is the same. Because, well, Hitler most probably thought that he was a good person. Certainly, his followers did. But if you can see the good in what is considered good by God and Christ, as stated in the verses in Matthew and I certainly do see it, myself and you can see the benefit in believing such a thing as necessary so that you also ACT upon it (think Rahab) then I would say you have very little to worry about. You would, in that case, be covered, yes?
I sincerely hope I have clarified things, and again, bid you the greatest of peace.
YOUR servant and slave of Christ, SJ
Sorry to respond so late, I hope you see this. I was never a JW, so I doubt we know eachother. You may know some of the same people I knew through gossip though. I caused quite a stir in Wichita with some JW's. But I would love to talk if you would be open to that. Again, I would love the chance to talk about the bible to you, but please don't feel overwhelmed. If you don't believe the same as I do, we can still be friends. I would love to meet. If you want my email, just let me know. You know how small Wichita is, we have probably seen eachother sometime already. HEhe
Well AGuest, I'm sorry that I mis-read you. I think Gumby mis-read you in the same way. I have often been accused of sounding rude or mean when I write and that's rarely ever my intention. As for the issue at hand, I remembered you writing something about me having two choices and that in the end I needed faith. Well, I don't have that (faith) so that's why I figured you didn't think I'd get saved. I thought you said that I had to have faith in the end. Did I mis-read this?
Luv-ya!!!
Six:
Is your problem with me, or what I wrote (because the few exchanges we've had always seem to be negative).
Just checking...
Stinky:
What Paul wrote at Rom.3:18 - 31 may help:
Rom 3:18
there is no fear of God before their eyes." LXX-Psa. 5:10; 139:4; 9:28; Isa. 59:7, 8; Psa. 35:2; MT-Psa. 14:1-3; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isa. 59:7, 8; Psa. 36:1Rom 3:19
But we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those within the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God.Rom 3:20
Because by works of Law not one of all flesh will be justified before Him, for through Law is full knowledge of sin. Psa. 143:2Rom 3:21
But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,Rom 3:22
even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference,Rom 3:23
for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,Rom 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,Rom 3:25
whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God,Rom 3:26
for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the one that is of the faith of Jesus.Rom 3:27
Then where is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through a Law of faith.Rom 3:28
Then we conclude a man to be justified by faith without works of Law.Rom 3:29
Or is He the God of Jews only, and not also of the nations? Yes, of the nations also,Rom 3:30
since it is one God who will justify circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.Rom 3:31
Then is the Law annulled through faith? Let it not be! But we establish Law.
Dearest Stinky-Girl... peace to you!
I, too, wondered about faith, for example in the case of the "Good Samaritan": did he just do what was "right"... or did he exercise faith? And the answer from my Lord is that he did both: he did the right thing, which was take care of his brother/enemy when some ill had befallen him... AND he had the FAITH to know that whatever HE had done... GOD would repay him... so that he did not worry about the cost or what he himself would "lose". He had no FEAR in caring for the battered Israelite... for he had faith that somehow he would be repaid for his good deed... both monetarily (in that his own assets would not decrease but even increase)... and by being granted entry into the kingdom (in what position was of no concern; entry was "reward" enough!) Thus, BOTH... his righteous work and his faith... borne out by that work... fulfilled the Law Covenant, for the Law Covenant hangs on the first ("you must love your neighbor as yourself"), and the NEW Covenant hangs on both... love AND faith.
And no, it was not a matter of him wondering whether he MIGHT be repaid; his FAITH said he WOULD be. Because supposedly that IS the promise from God, yes? That we fulfill the Law if we love God... AND our neighbor? And fulfilling the Law makes us "righteous"... and the "righteous will inherit the earth"? And God... cannot lie? Thus, according to the words of my Lord, that, "You must love your neighbor," and regarding the Samaritan, "Who of these... seems to have MADE himself neighbor to the man..." this man could KNOW... without doubting... that he would be declared "righteous" and granted entry.
Faith, dear Stink... is the ASSURED EXPECTATION of the things hopes for. The Samaritan man, then, HOPED... to one day enter into the kingdom of God. And because of the "works" he did... not works of Law such as the scribes and Pharisees burdened the people with... but "works" that fulfilled the law... of LOVE... and God's PROMISE that such ones who did such works WOULD enter, he could be ASSURED to receive what he EXPECTED.
If, then, you are a "good" person... in that you love your enemies... and your neighbor as yourself... then you can KNOW that you will inherit the kingdom... for such inheritance has been PROMISED to such ones. Thus, if you are a "good" person... and God, through Christ, has told us what is "good"... you can discard that false WTBTS scare tactic of "PROBABLY you will be saved..." and KNOW that you will be. And that... is faith! For doubting, which is what the WTBTS... and religion in general... teaches... is a LACK of faith. And those who LACK faith should not suppose they will receive anything. KNOW it, dear Stinky-Girl... and don't let anyone talk you out of it!
Again, I hope I have helped by giving you what my Lord has provided as a response, for I have spoken it to you just as I received it from him.
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, come to be upon you... if you so wish it.
Your servant... and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Yizuman,
No, sin caused the seperation.
And God had no choice but to maintain this separation and devise an elaborate "solution" that appears to cause more problems than it solves, that punishes the innocent and rewards people not for being good, but for believing this nonsense?
He paid the random not for Himself, but for us and it became more than enough. All the sacrifices of lambs have become no longer neccessary for He is the first and last sacrifice for all time.OK, I get the idea that the ransom was paid for us, but to whom was it paid ? Whom did God have to satisfy by killing his own son in order to get mankind released from sin and separation?
Let me see if I have it right. You mean the 66 books of the bible were written by 40 different men over hundreds of years, meny times different life times from one another, and in some elaborate hoax writer in the old scriptures predicted a coming massiah.
No, not an elaborate hoax. Just a primitive religious system. There were -and are - lots of them. Most have made predictions. Jews also believe the prophecies made in the "Old Testament" but don't believe that these were fulfilled by Jesus.
And years later not to look stupid, created a man named jesus.
Not really. Because the Jews had been looking so hard for a Messiah, they occasionally found one. Jesus was not the only person to be declared the Messiah by his followers.
Maybe he existed but wasnt who he said he was( he was just trying to justify the men of old ) or probably never existed at all.
That seems quite likely, although there probably was a real person around whom all the stories developed.
Matt, Mark, Luke , and John sat down one day and decided to continue this most elaborate hoax of all time by pretending to follow a 'made up' person and to write about him, then later convince thousands he existed without evidence.
You refer to the writers of the gospels as if they were actually four people called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. In reality, of course, the earliest copies of the gospel accounts date from centuries after the time Jesus was supposed to have lived. Matthew Mark and Luke appear to be based on the same original text. None of the gospels claim to be written by the disciples traditionally assigned to them. There does appear to be some evidence of a deliberate hoax. For example, Jesus was born of a virgin in order to fulfill a mistranslatred prophecy.
They apperently are some smooth talkers.
Snake oil salesmen usually are.
This hoax then spirals out of control to the point that this guy named jesus and his followers convince so many that thay even have time and dates center around this person. (B.C.E. and A.D.)
So if a unit of time is named after a religious being, then the religion in question must be true?
The dating system we use today was invented in the sixth century by Dionysius Exiguus who calculated the probable birthdate of Jesus. Eventually, as world trade became a reality, a common dating system was needed and in a world controlled by the Catholic Church, it's no surprise that they picked one based on the birth of Jesus. It doesn't mean there really was a Jesus, or that he was (the son of) god.
And at that time no one convincingly can dissprove he ever existed or he was who he said he was,
No, but it can convincingly be demonstrated that there was no census ordered in Judea that required everyone that return to their ancestral home to register around the supposed time of Christ's birth. It can convincingly be demonstrated that Herod the Great never ordered the slaughter of all boys under two. It's impossible to prove the non-existence of someone who may or may not have lived two thousand years ago, for reasons that should be blindingly obvious even to you, but the balance of probability suggests that most things recorded about Jesus' life never actually happened.
to the point that billions now fall for this hoax.
It's slightly more than the number who fall for the Koran hoax. Or do you believe that's true as well?
The moral fabric of countrys and there laws fall for this ......Again, that's also the case with the Koran. In fact, more people are unser strict Islamic law than under Christian law. Guess what, that doesn't make it true!
Edited by - funkyderek on 6 January 2003 13:15:8
Stinkypantz,
Who says Christians have the monopoly on Salvation? According to the Koran, belief in Allah is the only way to salvation. Yizuman will not be very happy to acknowledge that this is the only True Way tm to be saved, though.
"Nay-whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran, 2:112)
rem
StinkyPantz,
Everyone is entitled to hisor her own belief... if a Christian wants to believe that they must find salvation through their Christ... so be it. It does not harm you.
If you want to find inner peace through another belief or non-belief, so be it. It does not harm anyone else.
If a Christian starts condemning you for not believing what he believes... that is wrong. If you condemn a Christian for having a belief that you don't, that is also wrong.
Respect and willingness to explore is the key.
Explore and find what gives you peace.
When you see someone else who has found peace through something else, respect them so they may continue to enjoy peace.
