Abaddon, I am an unbeliever like many here. I do understand Pascal's wager differently than you. As I understand it, he said that it is a win-win situation if you try to be a good person. If there is a God you will have an after life. If there is no God you will have a good present life. Now, I have not read Pascal's original statements, but that is what I got from a secondary source.
For those who don't believe in God
by freedom96 45 Replies latest jw friends
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TR
Celia said
the more I read about different religions, the more God seems like the invention of some superstitious mind, used again and again by manipulative people....
Ditto.
TR
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seedy3
a religious experience is something that is personal.
I had a religous experience just last................. oops wrong forum
Anyhow, I do not beleive in God, gods or any form of beings higher then ourselves that deserves our worship. I however do beleive that we as modern humans have many abilities that we do not fully understand or know how to use. I sight the many mystery places, such as the pyramids (in the Americas Africa and Asia), Easter island, Pomnpea island (in the south Pacific), as wellas this tiny little island I live on of Guam. In each of these places there are things that science has yet to fully figure as to how they could have been made, they try unsuccessfully to explain them, but every time they do it just seems to open the door for more questions.
One place that I didn't mention above is much more modern then the ones I did. The Coral Castle, located in Florida. It was built in the 1920's by one skinny little man,that if he turned sideways he would disappear, yet he hoisted a 30 ton block of coral by himself into it's position on the top of the construction he built. There are many, many other rocks extreamly heavy (I mean in the mulit tons) but that was the largest. The door to this place is a 9 ton rock that you can push with your little finger, it is so well balanced. Science, as well cannot explain how it was built. There are eye wittnesses that know he never had outside help in the construction. How did he do it?? His own statement is "I have learned the secrets of the ancient Egyptions"
All religions seem to have a begining in trying to explain the unexplainable. Most of them are adapted from other older beliefs. The Hebrew belief system was adapted from the Canaanite beleifs with Egypt and Babylonian thrown in. Mush of the Egyption and Babylonian beleifs came from the legends that came from Sumer. It seems that from very acient times each religion has adapted from an older one, thrown away some of it and made a new religion from older beleifs. Each time they create a new belief, they seem to start a new culture. All of the Cultures around the world have their basis in the religious evoloution of the area they are in. Religion is what has made the world today what it is, that is why it is ok to do one thing in one place and not ok in another.
I think it is more correct as someone said earlier that we have created God inour own image, not the other way around. God is an excuse to explain what we cannot except as natural, or that need to explain untimly situations. He is an excuse, not a being or entity, but a figment of our imagination and dreams.
The god of the bible is a cruel and unusual punishment type of god, I looked one time at a sight that listed all of the atrosities mentioned in the bible blessed or commanded by this god, and for someone to say he is loving, is an outragous statement. An example of how the christians like to explain the evils errr love is best put by Pat Robertson in the following quote.
"The wars of extermination have given a lot of people trouble unless they know what was going on. The people in the land of Palestine were very wicked. They were given over to idolatry; they sacrificed their children; they had all kinds of abominable sex practices; they were having sex, apparently, with animals; they were having sex men with men, and women with women; they were committing adultery, fornication; they were worshipping idols, offering their children up; and they were forsaking God.
"God told the Israelites to kill them all -- men, women and children, to destroy them. And that seems to be a terrible thing to do. Is it? Or isn't it?"
"Well, let us assume there were 2,000 of them, or 10,000 of them living in the land, or whatever number there was of them. I don't have the exact number. Pick a number. God said, 'Kill them all.'
"Well, that would seem hard, wouldn't it? That would be 10,000 people who would probably go to Hell. But, if they stayed and reproduced, in 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 100 more years, they could conceivably be -- 10,000 would go to a 100,000 -- 100,000 could conceivably go to a million. And then, there would be a million people who would have to spend eternity in Hell! And it's far more merciful to take away a few than to see in the future a 100 years down the road, and say, 'Well, I have to take away a million people that would forever be apart from God, ' because the abomination was there like a contagium. God saw that there was no cure for it. It wasn't going to change; their hearts weren't going to change; and all they would do is cause trouble for the Israelites, and pull the Israelites away from God, and prevent the truth of God from reaching the Earth."
"So, God, in love, took away a small number that he might not have to take away a large number."
--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club" May 6, 1985Now doesn't that sound like love? sheesh
Seedy
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Introspection
I simply came to realize that beliefs are only beliefs and nothing more. We all hold certain beliefs to go through life everyday, but they are conditional, and to put so much emphasis on them is to attribute importance to your own mind - nothing wrong with that, it's just not all there is.
Edited by - Introspection on 9 January 2003 22:3:56
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joannadandy
Many of us here have obviously realized that the WTS is full of crap, but that doesn't mean that there is not a God.
Just because the WTS is full of crap doesn't mean there is a God. Interesting diachotomy you have going there. It's rather a hollow analogy.
I have heard this comment before. Apparantly lots of religious people who still hold to some sort of religious faith view those of us who have lost our "faith" as people who just roll over one day and say "well I think I am done believing in God now, I mean if I don't go to a Kingdom Hall there is no point in believing at all"
I was born into it. There was no other option but to believe in God. I wanted to believe in what my parents had to say and the elders said so badly. But I couldn't. My departure from religion was gradual. I studied other faiths and put an honest effort into finding a way to worship God that was in line with my view of the world. The more I studied the more disillusioned that I got.
For me I had never entertained the idea that there was no God. It scared the hell out of me! I wanted there to be a God, I needed a supreme being that had a divine plan. I was so depressed about the whole thing, and I just started to entertain the possibility. What if? What if there was no God? What a huge joke on the world that would be! While it was scary to me, the more I thought about it the far more plausible it seemed.
While I can understand why people believe in God, why people need to, hey I was there I know, I dislike that people say "oh don't let one bad experience ruin God for you" It wasn't just one bad experience. I don't like being lied to. And frankly anyone who talks about God and tells me I must believe in him for eternal salvation of my soul makes me want to puke.
That's the finale I have come to. Why is that so bad? It works for me! I am happier now than I was when I was worried about pleasing a mythical being. It makes far more sense to me that this is it. We get one chance, and it's a fun ride if you let it be. Why should I expect more?
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Aztec
*Nods to Jesika* Right on sister!
I started to read philosophy, something I was strictly forbidden to do. It planted little seeds in my mind and made start to question everything! Some days I'm not sure I exist.
~Aztec
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Abaddon
"Science, as well cannot explain how it was built" (edited to add quotes)
larc; it's pretty much as I understand it, it's just I get so annoyed by the intellecual and moral dishonesty of believing in god JUST IN CASE. Why prostitute yourself to ancient myths when you can lead a good life without believing in god?
seedy3; "Science, as well cannot explain how it was built." What this normally means is the person saying it doesn't know how it was built, or that there are various competing theories on how it was built. Some guy in Alaska found if he attached semi-cricular wooden frames to stone blocks, he could move large chunks of stone by himself just by rolling them. Maybe the skinny guy uded a crane when no one was around.
Occam's Razor (the simplest explaination is most likely the true one) is a good guide for life.
Edited by - Abaddon on 10 January 2003 6:21:53
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SYN
Have to agree with most of what Abaddon says on this one.
Here's a good question. What, technically, makes God more real than the "Invisible Kingdom of God", as set forth by the Watchtower?
Answer: Nothing. They are both illusions.
God was created by men a very long time ago in order to control other men. God (and esp. Satan) are, as Expatbrit has noted, the ultimate abdications of responsibility. God is seen by many people as a Big Brother who watches over us and will clean up our worst messes.
I ask you this: What can God do to stop a nuclear war? Will he defuse the missiles before they hit their targets?
These are hard questions, but life is not easy, either. And like Abaddon said, you can lead a good life and be an athiest too.
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pr_capone
I believe that God is like a child with a new toy. He created us and had fun playing with us for a while. Then, as with any other child, got bored and forgot all about us.
Eric of the Deist class
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Robdar
Ants don't think about humans until we stomp on their ant beds. I know that ants exist, but I could care less about their petty ant wars and strifes. Hey, they brought it on themselves, why should I intervene? The only time I worry about ants is when they get into my house. The ants in my yard know I exist but only worry about me when my clod hoppers come near their house. They could care less about my petty wars and strifes. Why should it be any different for the gods and humans?
To expect God to save us is a little conceited in my opinion. To get angry with him when he doesnt interfere is a waste of energy and time. The only responsibilities we owe God, ourselves and others is to enjoy our lives. Heh, I used to love philosophy. Now it just distracts me from living.
I know that this is a simple analogy, but I have a simple mind.
Robyn