Question for SwordOfJah and other real JWs

by Realist 36 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  rocketman

  As ashitaka and other said and implied, the WT says that God directs them, and yet, they do not (or, cannot) really say how it's done. They use terms like "leanings" of the spirit.

  Also, the following logic: 'if it is true that God used humans, like Moses, to lead 3,000,000 Israelites, then he must be using humans to lead his people today' still offers no proof as to which humans He chooses. Using that logic, one could just as easily say, 'well, there's 900 million Catholics, so God must be using humans to lead them, since he used humans to lead 3 million Israelites'.

  Also, the Witnesses always fall back on the "we're the ones doing the preaching work" explanation, but in fact the good news about the Christ has been spread abroad by many missionaries and others, including Bible societies and so forth.

  Back in Bible times, it was miracles that were the proof needed that God was leading a person or group.

  Edited by - rocketman on 10 January 2003 19:7:45
• 

  neyank

  Sword of Jah says:

  "I think you would have to clarify further was you expect Jehovah to show you as proof. Is faith in his inspired word not enough?"

  Sword, I don't think anyone is asking God to show us proof that He's using the WTS.
  They're asking the WTS to show proof that God is using them.

  The WTS has maid claims that God is using them.
  The WTS has made claims of speaking for God.
  The WTS claims that everyone that is not a JW WILL be destroyed by God.
  The WTS claims to be 'the Faithful and Discreet Slave.'

  No one is asking God to prove this because God never said that it was so.

  With that statement that you made, you show that you equate the WTS with God.

  There is nowhere in the scriptures that points to a man made religion as the group that God wants mankind to belong to.

  Now besides all of the false teachings the WTS has taught over the years, they also put themselves in the position of mediator between JWs and God by saing the Bible was writen for them. Not the average person. and they state that they are like Jesus' brothers. The 144,000 teaching.

  These claims are not proven in any way shape or form.

  Do you think people should follow any person or group that makes claims such as these without showing proof?
  Of course not!

  So why should the WTS be followed when they don't have proof to back these claims up?

  Their history of false teachings and false prophecies IS PROOF that God is NOT using them.

  The Mormans say the same things about their leaders as well as Catholics and Protastants and any other religion.

  Do you think these groups are being used by God?

  If not, then why not?

  neyank
• 

  Realist

  hey sword where are ya?
• 

  link

  This is the part that stumbles me every time this matter is discussed with JWs.

  SOJ wrote:

  In the times of Moses, there were around 3 million Israelites, and Jehovah saw fit to organize them and Moses was their leader on earth. Although Jehovah guided him, on many aspects Moses made decisions himself. When judicial cases aroused, he would consult the law that Jehovah had given him and then made a decision. In that way, he was guided by Jehovah on every act. Now if Jehovah organized the Israelites and set up human leaders to guide them, would he not do the same now adays since were talking a lot more that 3 million followers? As we read the structures, we see that Jehovah usually follows the same pattern.

  To me this is clearly saying that the GB and/or organisation of Jehovahs Witnesses have an equal position with Jehovah as that of Moses when leading the Israelites and this cannot be.Jehovah clearly and unequivocally demonstrated, not only to Moses but also to all the Israelites, that he was Gods spokesperson. If "Jehovah usually follows the same pattern" where is this pattern today.

  Im sorry SOJ, it just is not there and there are absolutely no parallels whatsoever between any part of the JW organisation today and the situation in the time of Moses.

  link
• 

  SwordOfJah

  Realist: Again, allow me to apologize for not responding sooner. I am usually not on the net during weekends as I am busy in the preaching work, going to the meeting on Sunday and spending time with the family.

  These are your questions:

  >>>a) what is the difference between inspired and spirit guided?

  Inspired would be as the writers of the Bible that were inspired to write word for word the thoughts of Jehovah God. Spirit guided would be that Jehovah uses his spirit as a guide but is not telling the person what to write or speak word for word. The person might also ignore that guidance if he is does not have proper motivation or a pure heart. For example, the spirit could guide me to a specific door while I'm in the preaching work, but I could ignore it if I'm tired and just go home.

  >>>b) what is the reason you follow the GB and not lets say the mormons...whether it is inspired or spirit guided...you have to have some convincing evidence.

  As this is a personal question to me, I will answer for my self and not in representation of all of my brother and sisters worldwide. I do not follow the GB, I read their counsel, I apply some of their suggestions, I study their publications, but at the end of the day I follow Jehovah God and try, and I say try, because I'm in perfect and I mess up, but I try to follow in Christ's footsteps. Now do I get all pissed off because I might not agree with 100% of what the GB publishes? No, I allow Jehovah God to guide them and eventually things get turned around for the good. And even if some things are not clearly understood at the present time, I do have hope of perfection in the new system of things.

  >>>c) my original question was if there is any real evidence supporting the WT's claim of being God's channel. the problem is without sound proof one cannot say whether the WT is God's channel or not. there are about a million different religions each claiming to be God chosen. ... so what neutral evidence exists (like a fullfilled prophecy)?

  The proof for me (again this is the case with me, you might not agree but this is what I feel), again the proof for me is that I have learned a lot from the Bible thanks to the guidance of the publications published by the GB. The message of Jehovah God is much clearer ever since I started studying with the Witnesses. Before studying the Bible with JWs, I was very confused, my life had no meaning as I had learned to ignore the real meaning of Jehovah's message. So many questions where answered through that Bible study and I am so appreciative of the opportunity Jehovah God gave me. Before studying with the Witnesses, I did receive some visits from the Mormons but I noticed that they did not follow the Bible correctly, then I joined an evangelical group and without getting into too much detail, I just felt they were nuts. I was Catholic and mass was just not solid food but a lot of traditions etc. But when I studied with JWs, I bombarded the brother with so many questions, and he patiently answered them using the bible. That is my personal proof. It might not be a miracle, but it's accurate knowledge as described in Proverbs 2.
• 

  Pleasuredome

  Im sorry SOJ, it just is not there and there are absolutely no parallels whatsoever between any part of the JW organisation today and the situation in the time of Moses.

  especially when the org is abducting children, protecting paedophiles and jumping into bed with the UN.

  Edited by - pleasuredome on 13 January 2003 11:23:27
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  link

  SOJ is clearly identifying the problems that I and many others have with the "truth"

  How on earth can this statement:

  No, I allow Jehovah God to guide them and eventually things get turned around for the good. And even if some things are not clearly understood at the present time, I do have hope of perfection in the new system of things.

  Possibly be reconciled with this:

  It might not be a miracle, but it's accurate knowledge as described in Proverbs 2.

  How can accurate knowledge be "not clearly understood"? If it is "not clearly understood" how can it be taught as "truth"? How can a religious organisation insist that salvation must be earned by compelling others to accept, as binding upon them, information that is "not clearly understood"?

  There are just far too many holes in what SOJ says for it to make any sense to a thinking person.

  This is not a personal attack on SOJ, just a big question mark against his thinking.

  link
• 

  Realist

  SwordOfJah,

  Again, allow me to apologize for not responding sooner. I am usually not on the net during weekends as I am busy in the preaching work, going to the meeting on Sunday and spending time with the family.

  no reason to apologize!!! i was just kidding!!!

  thank you for explaining your reasoning regarding the GB....

  i think your reasoning makes sense for someone who is certain the bible is indeed God's word ... however, for other people this doesn't make much sense i am afraid.

  thanks again,

  Realist
• 

  amac

  SOJ,

  Thank you for your posts explaining your personal convictions. I commend you on the following quote "I do not follow the GB, I read their counsel, I apply some of their suggestions, I study their publications, but at the end of the day I follow Jehovah God..."

  However, I have heard this from many fellow JWs and even though it may be what they think they are doing, in actuality, it is not. The reason being is that the GB DOES NOT ALLOW this. You are required to follow them, or else you are disfellowshipped. For instance, if you make a conscience decision that primary components of blood are acceptable for transfusions, just as the GB approved secondary components are, you will be involuntary disassociated for not following the GB's guidelines. Or if you make a personal decision on who you should associate with and who is repentful and not repentful (i.e. associate with a DF person that you feel has repented) you will be DFed yourself for not following the GB's judgement. Or if you decide that you will read literature from "apostates" because you know you have the truth and it will not be dislodged with lies, you can be DFed (if the elders find out and you don't respond correctly to their direction.) Sorry for carrying on, but these are some issues I would have trouble reconciling and I am curious if you are able to.

  I hope to hear back from you.
• 

  detective

  Before studying the Bible with JWs, I was very confused, my life had no meaning as I had learned to ignore the real meaning of Jehovah's message.

  "My life had no meaning" That's pretty heavy stuff. I wonder, does your life have meaning now? Would it have meaning if you stopped going regularly to meetings? Say, maybe going only once or twice a month. Would it have meaning then? Would it have meaning if you stopped going to meetings but continued to believe what the witnesses teach?
  Can someone outside the witnesses have a meaningful life?

  Now do I get all pissed off because I might not agree with 100% of what the GB publishes? No, I allow Jehovah God to guide them and eventually things get turned around for the good.

  Would this statement be equally valid if presented like so:

  "Now do I get all pissed off because I might not agree with 100% of what the {mormons/scientoloists/catholics teach}? No, I allow Jehovah God to guide them and eventually things get turned around for the good."

  I have learned a lot from the Bible thanks to the guidance of the publications published by the GB

  What types of things can a person learn about the bible? Historical information? Biblical interpretation? Anything else you can think of? What other ways can you learn alot about the bible? Can you learn alot about the bible by going to the library and reviewing different materials? Can you learn alot about the bible by comparing different interpretations of passages? Can you learn alot about the bible by reading it yourself?

  I'd be interested to know what you think on these things.