Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Questions and Comments for Joseph Malik (some of them have already been asked and have received no response):

  What do you believe that the defining attributes, qualities, and characteristics of the Supreme Being are, which no created being has?
  __________

  In the Septuagint Version of Psalm 102:25, which Paul quoted in Hebrews 1:10, is "Lord" actually Yahweh?
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  Why do you believe Yahweh when He says He created the Heavens and the Earth ALONE (Isaiah 44:24), but you absolutely DO NOT believe Yahweh when He says He created humans ALONE? (Isaiah 45:11-12, Nehemiah 9:6)

  It seems to me that you are picking and choosing which of Yahweh's statements to believe in order to fit in with your pre-conceived beliefs.
  __________

  Where, in any Scripture, in any Translation on Earth, does the Bible say that the angel who became Satan ever created anything, as you claim???
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  Do you believe that the Supreme Being is not Omnipresent? How about Omnipotent? What about Omniscient?
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  Can created angels read human hearts and minds?
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  Psalm 102:25-27 says that Yahweh created the humans and governments.

  Hebrews 1:10 says that Jesus created the humans and governments.

  Explain that contradiction please.
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  According to your beliefs, did the FATHER or the SON create the humans and governments?
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  You have claimed several times that Jesus Christ DID NOT create the Heavenly angels.

  How do you explain Colossians 1:16, which not only says that Jesus created the angels, it says He created them FOR HIMSELF:

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
  __________

  Where does it say in Luke 9:35 that the Father gave any extra authority to Jesus at that time?
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  According to Scripture, you have 2 options on what to believe about how Jesus Christ/The Word came into existence:

  1: The Father created The Word.

  2: The Word has always existed because The Word is God.

  Do you believe in option 1 or option 2?
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  Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for?
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  If, as you claim, a created angel is my ONLY Sovereign Ruler, then that means the Supreme Being is NOT my True Sovereign Ruler!
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  Does Daniel 12:1-2 say what Michael will do at that time when he stands up?
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  You claimed that the "angels" in Hebrews Chapter 2 and Chapter 12 are human messengers.

  So, in Hebrews 2:7, Jesus was "made a little lower" than humans?

  Hebrews 2:7: You made Him a little lower than the angels; You crowned Him with glory and honor.

  So, according to Hebrews 2:16, Jesus does not help human messengers?

  Hebrews 2:16: For most assuredly, not to angels does He give help, but He gives help to the seed of Abraham.

  In Hebrews 12:22-24, why are "myriads of angels" mentioned separately from the Christian Congregation, and also separately from "the spirits of just men made perfect"?

  Hebrews 12:22: But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
  Hebrews 12:23: to the general congregation and congregation of the firstborn who are enrolled in Heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
  Hebrews 12:24: to Jesus, the Mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
  __________

  Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth by Myself

  Now, here is a little illustration:

  If I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone", but then actually, it was my secretary who mailed the letter for me, that might not be a lie (although it's getting close).

  But, now what if I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone ALONE, ALL BY MYSELF", and then actually it was my secretary who mailed it, I would definitely be lying.

  Another illustration:

  It can be said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Wins a Game", but actually, he had help from the Fielders and the Batters.

  If someone said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Won a Game ALONE, ALL BY HIMSELF", that would definitely be a lie.

  My point?

  When the Scriptures say "God created all things", then maybe, perhaps, possibly, God could have delegated certain parts of creation to angels.

  But when Yahweh Himself declares "I CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE, BY MYSELF", Yahweh would by lying if He had delegated any part of creation to anyone else.

  Can Yahweh lie?

  Titus 1:2: In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began

  If it is not too much trouble for you, I would like to hear your response to these illustrations (which I have posted several times).
  _____________

  I believe the Bible has a broader definition of the word "name" than you do, notice this Verse:

  Isaiah 9:6: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the Government shall be on His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

  So, according to the Bible, are the following words names of Jesus Christ or not?

  "Wonderful", "Counselor", "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father", and "Prince of Peace".
  _____________

  Do you believe that after the 1,000 years Jesus will no longer be our Lord?

  I would like to see where you got that in the Bible.

  I'm sure you will respond with 1st Corinthians 15:24-28.

  However, when Jesus "delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father", it must mean Jesus Christ "delivers up" His Mediatorial Kingdom (which will no longer be needed once everyone has been made sinless), or else it would contradict other Scriptures, which I will post below:

  Luke 1:31: Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and will call His Name 'Jesus.'
  Luke 1:32: He will be Great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David,
  Luke 1:33: and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to His Kingdom."

  Isaiah 9:7: Of the increase of His Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.

  Daniel 7:14: There was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

  2nd Peter 1:11: For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

  Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

  Since you claim that Jesus may no longer be Lord or King after the 1,000 years, explain to me why those Verses say that Jesus Christ will never stop being King, Lord, and God.
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  Joseph, where does the Bible say that Jesus can take ANY title He wants, EXCEPT for the Supreme Being's Personal Name?
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  Do you believe that it would have been okay for Jews to call King David their ONLY [monos] God?
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  Where does the Bible say that YHWH is only the Father's Name and not the Son's Name also?
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  If Michael is a name of our Lord Jesus Christ, why is the name Michael only used twice in the New Testament?
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  I am curious, how does "I AM" at Exodus 3:14 read in the original Hebrew?
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  Jesus did not use the past tense when He said "I am" in John 8:58. Why is that?
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  In John 8:58, if all that Jesus was saying is that He existed before Abraham, why would the Pharisees get more upset about Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham than when Jesus called them "Satan-Worshipers" and "Liars"?

  I mean, if Jesus had simply stated "I have been", Jesus could have been saying that He was a created angel, or He could have been claiming to be someone who was resurrected from Abraham's time, and I don't think "Claiming to be an angel" or "Claiming to exist before Abraham" would have been a Stoning-Offense, would it, especially when calling the Pharisees "Satan-Worshipers" and "Liars" wasn't a Stoning-Offense?
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  Joseph, you have claimed that John 17:3 is saying that ONLY the Father is the Only True God, to the exclusion of the Son.

  Well, Jude 1:4 says that Jesus Christ is the Only Sovereign Ruler -- is that to the exclusion of the Father?
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  Do you believe that, in a vision it is NOT okay to worship angels who are speaking for the Supreme Being, but it IS okay to worship angels when it is not in a vision? If so, please show me the Scriptures that support that view.
  _____________

  In the big "Trinity" Thread in November/December, you had claimed that 1st Timothy 2:5 "destroys the concept of the Trinity".

  1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

  Please explain how that Verse "destroys the concept of the Trinity".
  _____________

  "siegswife" asked you this question, which you never responded to: Jesus is identified as the "Eternal Father" at Isaiah 9:6. Is he?

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 9 February 2003 7:12:16

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 10 February 2003 3:13:4
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  JosephMalik

  Are you upset because I quoted verbatim / word-for-word what you said your beliefs are in this Thread?

  Undisfellowshipped,

  I am not upset at all. As I have stated many times scripture must be understood in context and this is something that Trinitarians cannot grasp. As for quoting verbatim / word-for-word what I said where did I say:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Trinitarians simply cannot tell the truth it seems and must say and do things like this in an attempt to impress the listener. I have no respect for people who do such things. You lost the discussion on Michael and tried to turn this into a trinity discussion instead. I have no interest in doing that since we covered it many threads ago and you lost that discussion as well.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 10 February 2003 4:41:7
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph,

  After I had posted the list of verbatim / word-for-word quotes from you about what you believe, you had posted this:
  

  For one thing you should never tell someone what I believe and teach. It is not your place since you cannot grasp what I have said.

  So, I assumed you were upset about me posting quotes from you about what you believe.

  Please explain what you were saying, if you were not saying you were upset about me posting your quotes.

  Now, I will comment on your latest post.

  You said to me:
  

  As for quoting verbatim / word-for-word what I said where did I say:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Trinitarians simply cannot tell the truth it seems and must say and do things like this in an attempt to impress the listener. I have no respect for people who do such things.

  Joseph, I can tell you exactly where you said "As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan."

  Here is the exact location where you posted that statement:

  On the very first page of this Thread, in your very first post on this Thread, you stated:

  Joseph responds: Simple, because such authority was not granted the WORD until He became flesh, when the words out of heaven were spoken that said: Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan. Now this was all to change and authority would be given so that Jesus could NOW say: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

  Joseph, once again, you accused me of being a liar when you said:
  

  Trinitarians simply cannot tell the truth it seems and must say and do things like this in an attempt to impress the listener. I have no respect for people who do such things.

  What does "do things like this" mean Joseph? Were you implying that I lied about and made up that quote?

  It's interesting how you accuse me of being a liar because you can't remember where you posted something.

  Also, the Scriptures prove the following statement of yours to be WRONG:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

  Joseph, you have claimed that the Pre-Human Jesus, the Logos, who Colossians 1:16 says created the angels, DID NOT have authority to rebuke Satan in Heaven.

  I would ask you to explain that, but nearly every time I have asked for help in understanding your beliefs, you either accuse me of being a liar, or you completely ignore my questions.

  You said:
  

  You lost the discussion on Michael and tried to turn this into a trinity discussion instead. I have no interest in doing that since we covered it many threads ago and you lost that discussion as well.

  Everyone on this Thread can see that I have been replying to comments and questions from you.

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 10 February 2003 5:23:9
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph,

  I asked you several sincere questions above, because I truly want to better understand what you believe.

  Have you responded to my sincere questions like the Scriptures say Christians are supposed to respond?

  1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:
  1st Peter 3:16: having a good conscience; that, while you are spoken against as evildoers, they may be disappointed who revile your good manner of life in Christ.

  1st Peter 3:8: Finally, all of you be like-minded, compassionate, loving as brothers, tenderhearted, courteous,
  1st Peter 3:9: not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling; but instead blessing; knowing that to this were you called, that you may inherit a blessing.

  Do you accuse everyone who asks questions to you of being a liar, or is it only me, or is it only Trinitarians? Or is it anyone who disagrees with you?

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 10 February 2003 6:5:28
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  plmkrzy

  I would like to but in here briefly if yall don't mind,

  Joseph I have a question ...or two

  I can follow most of what you have posted easy enough but the scripture you quoted from here has always been a bit foggy to me, when trying to follow others interpretations.

  . this name [YHWH] applies to God alone also known as the Father. It is the Fathers kingdom that the Son was given and will rule over for a limited period of time until the end when it is returned to the Father.

  Is it your interpretation that the son will rule the kingdom of God for a while and then return it to the father, as in The entire kingdom?

  Or, the kingdom of god as in what pertains to humans and those resurrected, this happening after Satan is destroyed and earth has been restored?

  I am assuming since returning the Kingdom of God, to God, involves the thousand years of restoration, then this would be referring to the Kingdom of God that pertains to us. What I mean is, how do we know how many kingdoms God has? Or, perhaps will continue to create.

  Envisioning there are many kingdoms that do not pertain to us, is the only way that that makes any sense to me. The son will be given all authority over the heavens and the earth and authority to destroy Satan, who currently has authority, although limited, over the earth.

  So, after the Son restores it with the help of whom ever else is appointed,

  Why would he return something to the father that was given to him, the gift of creation?

  Why would it not remain with the son since it was the Sons gift to create in the first place?

  Would this perhaps be referring to The Heavens as in one of many, but not including The earth?

  The earth belonged to the Son and will again, but the heavens will be given to (the rains will be held by) (the honor will be given)

  the Son, for a while. The earth will be his to do with as he pleases. Perhaps give it to someone else, who knows?

  I read and read and find one thing in common, for a lot of people, regardless of what exactly they see as God, often when explaining their understanding, it seems the idea that we are the center of the universe and everything revolves around us is shared equally. As though WE are the alpha and the omega.

  plum
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  JosephMalik

  Is it your interpretation that the son will rule the kingdom of God for a while and then return it to the father, as in The entire kingdom?

  Plmkrzy,

  Yes, according to the apostle Paul when he said.

  1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

  Plmkrzy said: Or, the kingdom of god as in what pertains to humans and those resurrected, this happening after Satan is destroyed and earth has been restored?

  There is but one kingdom here on earth and Satan will not be released until our Lord has completed His tasks and returned it to the Father.

  Plmkrzy said: I am assuming since returning the Kingdom of God, to God, involves the thousand years of restoration, then this would be referring to the Kingdom of God that pertains to us. What I mean is, how do we know how many kingdoms God has?

  Makes no difference how many kingdoms God has. The scriptures are only concerned with the Kingdom of God as it pertains to us. There is only one kingdom of God of interest to us and while it is Gods kingdom it will be administered by the Son until this end when it will be delivered to God as it was in the beginning.

  Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {his: Gr. the Son of his love}

  Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

  You have a complex view of the kingdom with which I am not familiar. But I see the kingdom (all of it) as existing here on earth. It will be populated with resurrected immortal human beings and ruled by Christ in the flesh until brought into submission. No one will go to heaven as many teach as a human and not a spirit creature was sacrificed for our sins. He was the complement of Adam, a pure human being. The rule is simple. Like for like, kind for kind. Few seem to realize that gaining entry into this kingdom when it is being administered by the Son is not difficult. All that is required of us is that we are decent human beings. But it will not be that simple when it comes to the kingdom of God. It will require that such humans pass the final test when Satan is restored for a little while. Only those that pass this test will be found worthy to enter the Kingdom of God when it is returned to Him.

  2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

  7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  Human beings that have lived during the thousand years will fail this test. Not all of them but only the ones identified as Gog and Maygog, known in scripture as enemies of God. The Saints having already passed the test of faith and over which the second death has no authority will not be involved as they will not falter. The complex descriptions of how the kingdom will function in Watchtower theology makes all this far more difficult to understand then need be. It is a simple plan and it will be completed as written. The earth will be populated by Adams offspring just as if they had all eaten from the tree of life, and the Son will no longer be needed as a Mediator when this plan is completed.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Also, the Scriptures prove the following statement of yours to be WRONG:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  That is correct but there is nothing wrong with it as you imply. You quoted what I said as if it is a blanket statement to tell everyone exactly what I teach. You are wrong and are deceiving them. The context of the discussion is completely lost when you pull statements out like this. This is the way Trinitarians twist the meaning of texts and discussions and I want everyone to see this. Our Lord did not have authority over Satan, and this must also be understood based on the texts being responded to at the time which were taken from OT texts regarding Michael. Such authority was given later. You failed to mention that so that what I teach was completely distorted by you. Only God has any real authority over Satan and only God can pass this authority to the Son which He would do later in time.

  For those that want to know, this is what I said exactly in my thread found on page 1:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=45177&site=3&page=1

  Undisfellowshipped stated: Jude 1:9: But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil and arguing about the body of Moses, did not dare bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

  Notice: That Verse shows that Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan the Devil, but instead Michael said "May the Lord rebuke you!".

  Jesus Christ, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, while on Earth (after He had "emptied Himself" of glory, honor, and power), rebuked Satan and the demons several times, so if Jesus is Michael, why would He have LESS authority to rebuke Satan in Heaven than on Earth?

  Joseph responds: Simple, because such authority was not granted the WORD until He became flesh, when the words out of heaven were spoken that said: Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan. Now this was all to change and authority would be given so that Jesus could NOW say: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

  Colossians does not prove your point either since it only deals with human beings not spirit creatures such as Satan. What you claim was bad, and an error was really a truth.

  Joseph
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  LittleToe

  It seems to me that the only scriptural support for Jesus being Michael is found in 1Thess.4:16 alone. Yes he is spoken of having more than just an archangel's voice.
  In this regard, I find Zech.9:14 interesting.

  What do you make of that verse, Joseph?
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  plmkrzy

  Joseph is highlighted

  Makes no difference how many kingdoms God has. The scriptures are only concerned with the Kingdom of God as it pertains to us. There is only one kingdom of God of interest to us and while it is Gods kingdom it will be administered by the Son until this end when it will be delivered to God as it was in the beginning.

  I see the kingdom (all of it) as existing here on earth.

  In my mind, how I've interpreted scripture, the Kingdom of God, that is ruled by the Son, is a level of being. There is no evil or anything else bad in it, but is not yet perfect. It is a level that aspirers complete perfection and is not hindered with obstacles, as in the present with Satan running amuck.

  The Kingdom of God, the Father, is perfection restored completely.

  I dont see it as a place limited to earth or something that has boundaries.

  Thats how I believe anyway.

  Only those that pass this test will be found worthy to enter the Kingdom of God when it is returned to Him.

  I assume you are referring to the remnant? The same that the WT teaches will already be in heaven at the beginning of the thousand-year rein.

  If I follow you right on that then, who do you believe will be ruling in heaven with the Son during this time?

  I view the ones on earth, whom will be anointed as kings in heaven, as being in heaven during the restoration period very similar to what the WT has taught, or use to or whatever, however I think they are off track in many ways concerning their relationship to all humans who are not immortal. I wont even go there now cause it might get to weird, but I believe there is a purpose for their existence that does and will play a major role in all human existence for a period of time. The time on earth, the time in heaven (being the thousand years), plus the short period after the end of the thousand years. At that time, their faith will be tested as well as all humans. Some perhaps will fall as did with Satan. I believe at least one will fall, but this time when they are cast out, they will be cast out completely, destroyed with Satan, not just cast down to earth. Also, there is no way of guessing what exactly a short time is. It could be several hundred years.

  I believe everything that is connected to our existence or related to our existence, is an existence that will have to come full circle including the connection between the heavens and the earth. Then it will be complete.

  Sort of like history repeating its self, but on a much grander scale. All the elements must be in place.

  Keep this under your hat ok?

  Also, the Scriptures prove the following statement of yours to be WRONG:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

  Im afraid you lost me on this one. Ill have to go back and look for the place where I said that.

  If I said that, then I would have been referring to a PERIOD of time.

  The Father gives the Son the authority and Satan challenges it.

  There is a period of time, which has to pass, before the son may exercise his authority over Satan .

  Well, I am going to the movies. Ill check in tomorrow and see if you have a response to any of this.

  plum
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  JosephMalik

  If I follow you right on that then, who do you believe will be ruling in heaven with the Son during this time?

  Plmkrzy,

  No one. I do not believe that anyone will go to heaven to rule with Christ. As I stated Christ will rule here on earth in the flesh during this time.

  Joseph