Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph, it's okay, you don't have to respond to my points. It's obvious that you do not want to respond to them.

  So far, this is what I have learned about your beliefs:

  1: Joseph denies that Yahweh [Jehovah] created humans. (Compare that belief with Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 43:7, Isaiah 45:11-12, Nehemiah 9:6)

  2: Joseph denies that Yahweh knows all things, and Joseph claims that Yahweh sends angels out to gather information for Him (Compare that belief with Jeremiah 17:10, 1st Kings 8:39, 1st Chronicles 28:9, Psalm 7:9, 1st Samuel 16:7)

  3: Joseph denies that Jesus knows all things, and Joseph claims that Jesus sends angels out to gather information for Him (Compare that belief with Revelation 2:23, John 2:24-25, John 21:17, John 16:30, Matthew 9:3-4, Matthew 12:25, John 6:64)

  Would you like to comment on any of that?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, Joseph, you keep saying:

  The trinity is not the truth and never was.

  Over, and over, and over again, like it's a chant or something.

  Repeating something over and over does not make something true.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Undisfellowshipped,

  I have commented on all this and shown proof. The angels God used to represent Him is proof. The fact that the Logos and not God created man in the beginning is proof. That God is credited with all this is not proof. None of such things could have taken place without His authorization so God is given the credit. Such things however were authorized and delegated and this was also shown clearly. It is matter of context which you constantly reject. Some verses go into detail and some do not. You keep using the verses that do not as if they are absolute and reject any other evidence offered. This is not my problem but yours and everyone can see this. The trinity doctrine is not the truth and never was. It is a false teaching that not only confused many texts used here but makes the proper understanding of scripture difficult if not impossible for many.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 February 2003 17:46:48
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  plmkrzy

  Why would Yahweh need help from created angels to confuse humans' languages?

  Why do people assume there is always some "NEED" for "HELP" on Gods part?

  Maybe he just doesn't like doing everything by himself. If he was the first anything and everything, and started creating stuff, perhaps there was a reason. Not only that, why would anyone ask such as question to another person in the first place? Everything ALL people discuss regarding ancient history and its connection to the Bible is all speculation. We are nothing more then generations upon generations of people arguing amongst ourselves about what God meant by this and that and did he even say this or that in the first place.

  I wish everyone who wishes to understand what it's all about could find a sense of peace rather then be frustrated with why he or she or they don't see things the same way or get the same benefit as others do.

  Especially when it comes to understanding the Bible. Why try so hard to understand something that was meant for everyone to understand?

  If the effort is greater then the gain then that should be ones first clue to perhaps back off a bit and gel out. Thats what I've learned anyway and it works for me. Sometimes we can look so long and hard at something we may never see it.

  im done now you may carry on
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  plmkrzy,

  Thanks for your comments.

  You said:
  

  (Quoting UnDisfellowshipped): "Why would Yahweh need help from created angels to confuse humans' languages?"

  Why do people assume there is always some "NEED" for "HELP" on Gods part?

  Maybe he just doesn't like doing everything by himself.

  If the Scriptures said that angels created things, then I would believe it. No Scripture in the entire Bible comes anywhere near saying that any created angels created anything.

  Yahweh God Almighty Himself says in Isaiah that He alone, and all by Himself created everything.

  Now, that is a pretty clear statement isn't it?

  Somehow, Joseph interprets that to mean that angels helped Yahweh create "the smaller things", such as humans and animals.

  plmkrzy said:
  

  If he was the first anything and everything, and started creating stuff, perhaps there was a reason. Not only that, why would anyone ask such as question to another person in the first place? Everything ALL people discuss regarding ancient history and its connection to the Bible is all speculation. We are nothing more then generations upon generations of people arguing amongst ourselves about what God meant by this and that and did he even say this or that in the first place.

  Yahweh's statements throughout the Old Testament are absolutely clear -- I created all things alone.

  Several Scriptures in the Bible are very clear and easy to understand, however, there are some parts which are harder to understand.

  plmkrzy said:
  

  I wish everyone who wishes to understand what it's all about could find a sense of peace rather then be frustrated with why he or she or they don't see things the same way or get the same benefit as others do.

  Well, the Scriptures are clear that not everyone who believes they are following Christ will be saved.

  There are some essential beliefs in order to be saved, or else, why would there even be a Bible?

  I do agree with you, I wish there could be more peace.

  I am not frustrated with Joseph.

  plmkrzy said:
  

  Especially when it comes to understanding the Bible. Why try so hard to understand something that was meant for everyone to understand?

  The Scriptures say that there are some people who intentionally deceive other people about the Scriptures, and then there are others who are themselves deceived about the Scriptures.

  The main message of the Bible is clear:

  1: We are all sinners.
  2: We all deserve to be destroyed.
  3: There is absolutely no way to save ourselves, no matter how many good works we do.
  4: Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is our Lord, willingly came to Earth and died for our sins and bore all of our sins on the Cross.
  5: Jesus Christ was raised up.
  6: We are saved only by the grace [undeserved kindness] of Jesus Christ through absolute faith in Him as Lord, and in His Sacrifice and Resurrection.

  plmkrzy said:
  

  If the effort is greater then the gain then that should be ones first clue to perhaps back off a bit and gel out. Thats what I've learned anyway and it works for me. Sometimes we can look so long and hard at something we may never see it.

  I understand what you are saying.

  However, as a Christian, it is my responsibility to try and help people to understand the Scriptures.

  If anyone has any questions about any Scriptures, I will always try to help them.

  If I ever sound rude to anyone, I truly do apologize, and it was not intentional.

  Sometimes, though, speaking truth may upset some people.

  But, that is the problem with the Watchtower Society, is it not? Inside the Watchtower Society, no one is allowed to question anything, and no one is allowed to have this type of discussion or debate about the Scriptures.

  plmkrzy said:
  

  im done now you may carry on

  Thank you for your comments plmkrzy.

  I am only planning to post a few more comments to Joseph in this Thread (about subjects he brought up).

  I believe, most everything I posted the last few pages was in response to comments or questions or accusations by Joseph.
• 

  plmkrzy

  I believe, most everything I posted the last few pages was in response to comments or questions or accusations by Joseph.

  I do understand that and I wasn't really telling you off, even though it may have sounded that way. I don't always comment, in fact I hardly ever comment, on these types of threads, but I do get caught-up in reading the arguments and sometimes get an urge to just voice in.

  I just hit submit and nothing happened, perhaps a sign?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph said:
  

  The angels God used to represent Him is proof. The fact that the Logos and not God created man in the beginning is proof. That God is credited with all this is not proof. None of such things could have taken place without His authorization so God is given the credit.

  All I need to refute those statements is the Holy Scriptures -- I let the Scriptures speak for themselves:

  Nehemiah 9:6: You are Yahweh, even You alone; You have made Heaven, the Heaven of Heavens, with all their Army, the Earth and all things that are on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all; and the Army of Heaven worships You.

  Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?);

  Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are You, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for You created all things, and because of Your desire they existed, and were created!"

  Revelation 10:5: The angel who I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to the sky,
  Revelation 10:6: and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay

  Is there any way for any created angels to be involved in creation according to those Verses? Absolutely not -- not unless you are going "beyond the Scriptures."

  Joseph, if I cannot trust those Scriptures as being true, then I might as well forsake all of the Scriptures, because if what you say is true, then it means Yahweh is a liar, and then I would have to not trust the Scriptures.

  I personally KNOW that Yahweh cannot lie, and I must obey God as Ruler rather than man.

  Joseph said:
  

  Such things however were authorized and delegated and this was also shown clearly. It is matter of context which you constantly reject. Some verses go into detail and some do not.

  Here is an example in the Bible that I want to comment on:

  Colossians 2:18: Let no one rob you of your prize by ...worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen...

  That Verse clearly says humans are NOT supposed to worship angels. Period. It does not mention ANY exceptions to the rule.

  Yet, Joseph, you claim that it is okay to worship created angels who are "representing Yahweh", such as in Exodus 3:14.

  Read Colossians 2:18 -- does it mention any exceptions?

  Does it say "Let no one rob you of your prize by ...worshipping of the angels, unless they are representing God" ?

  Created holy angels will ALWAYS refuse worship. Period:

  Revelation 19:10: I fell down before [the angel's] feet to worship him. He said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy."

  Revelation 22:8: Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
  Revelation 22:9: He said to me, "Make sure that you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the Prophets, and with those who keep the Words of this Book. Worship God."

  I have made my beliefs absolutely clear.

  If anyone has any questions at all, no matter what they are, you can always E-Mail me at [email protected], and I will try my humble best to help you.

  I am by no means an expert when it comes to the Scriptures.

  I am not even 21 years old yet, and I have only been studying the Scriptures without the Watchtower Publications for a year and a half.

  I could very well be wrong on some of my beliefs.

  I welcome anyone to please correct me if I am wrong on anything, or even if you only think I am wrong.

  If you have different beliefs than me, that's fine. I like hearing different people's beliefs and opinions.

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 6 February 2003 20:15:27
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph, you claimed I could not show you that the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.

  Well, first of all, I would need to show that the Holy Spirit is a Person, which I will do below:

  John, to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from God, who is and who was and who is to come; and from the Seven Spirits who are before His throne; and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the Earth. To Him who loves us, and washed us from our sins by His Blood; and He made us to be a Kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)

  In those Verses, The Father, The Son, and The Spirit ("Seven Spirits") are all Three giving Grace and Peace to humans.

  How can an "Impersonal Active Force" give Grace [undeserved kindness] to humans?

  Why would an "Impersonal Active Force" be mentioned in between The Father and The Son as giving Grace and Peace to people?

  Also, if the "Seven Spirits" are angels, as some people claim, then why would these seven angels be mentioned immediately after The Father and BEFORE The Son as giving Grace and Peace to people?

  And, why would John invoke angels to give Grace and Peace to humans?

  Also, check out these Verses:

  How can an "Impersonal Active Force" have Love?

  Romans 15:30: Now I beg you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me

  How can an "Impersonal Active Force" have Communion or Fellowship with People?

  2nd Corinthians 13:14: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.

  Philippians 2:1: If there is therefore any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassion

  How can an "Impersonal Active Force" live?

  1st Corinthians 3:16: Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?

  Why does the following Verse say that Yahweh AND His Spirit sent someone?

  Isaiah 48:16: Come you near to me, hear you this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, and His Spirit.

  You can also see from the different Verses above, that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, are mentioned separately in several Verses.

  So, how can The Father be the Holy Spirit since they are mentioned as being separate Persons?

  So, how can Jesus Christ be the Holy Spirit since they are mentioned as being separate Persons?
• 

  gumby

  And the award goes to..............................

  The three stooges!

  Once again they have dragged a subject into 6 pages and have given us a thread title to stare at for days that unfortunately stays on the first page of the forum for all to see.

  The sad thing is........none of them come away with anything different than when they started the subject. Each one will still believe what he believed prior to this "debate"

  What is your point and purpose boys?
• 

  JosephMalik

  In those Verses, The Father, The Son, and The Spirit ("Seven Spirits") are all Three giving Grace and Peace to humans.

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Where do you get the idea that the seven spirits are the holy spirit? Now you have 9 persons that make up the nature of God instead of three? This is not evidence. This just shows that Trinitarians will say anything just like the Watchtower does. Where is Gabriel in all this? Where are the other non-human beings God has at His disposal like the angel that delivered the Revelation to John? This is just another example of why the trinity is not the truth and never was. It detracts from the simple clarity of the texts and makes them complex. If God does everything personally then what does He need so many creatures for? What do you think they do? Just bow down and worship all day long or run around and deliver messages, something that God can do better and faster? Trinitarians just do not get it.

  Joseph