A Plan to Stop Gun Violence

by Crazy151drinker 52 Replies latest jw friends

  • SpannerintheWorks
    SpannerintheWorks

    Crazy,

    Once again you PRESUME that by legalizing drugs consumption would increase and in reality, this is not the case

    Oh? Do you have evidence of this?

    It stays the same.

    See comment above.

    Holland is a perfect example. Many types of drugs are not only legal, but they sell them

    Which drugs? LSD? Heroin?

    Holland's crime rate is EXTREMELY low.

    That's just because they are nice people! I mean, look at Vivamus!

    Which leads to: If consumption will not increase

    Once again, you PRESUME consumption will not increase.

    why are drugs illegal??

    Good question. Why are certain things illegal? Why is paedophilia illegal? Why is murder, rape and suicide (yes, even self-inflicted

    death) illegal?

    Spanner

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Spanner

    Murder, Rape, Pedophilla, etc..etc.. are illegal because they cause harm to others. Generally speaking, self-harm is legal. I can drink my self into oblivion and smoke until my teeth are black and the govt. will not care. The reason is the simple concept of do what you want as long as you dont hurt others- ie Freedom, ie Independence. Suicide? Well, that is a stupid law- what are they going to do, lock up your body?? That law probably is based on our religious background.

    Its simple spanner- you can drink and drink and drink and drink and drink and be an Alcoholic as long as you dont hurt others. It is illegal to drink and drive becuase you might hurt OTHERS. Smoking is illegal in many public places due to Second Hand smoke which hurts OTHERS. Its a very simple concept. So why not allow drugs?? If all they are doing is hurting themselves and not OTHERS?? The govt trusts me not to drink and drive and it shows this trust by allowing me to buy ALL THE ALCOHOL I WANT. So why cant the Govt trust me to do a line of coke? Smoke some pot?? Do you know any violent Pot heads???

    I will look up drug use statistics for you regarding Holland.

    Which leads back to my other questions: Why do you support a policy that doesnt work? Please explain how the current policy is different from Prohibition.

    Do you not see a cause-n-effect similarity between prohibiton and the current war on drugs??

    Prohibition- Mob

    War on Drugs- Cartels

    Also, when I show you Hollands statistics of Low crime and no increase in drug consumption will you then answer: If consumption will not go up, why are drugs illegal???

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    The government doesn't want to legalize drugs. If you legalize drugs the crime rate goes down and tax revenues will drop. This will result in a big hit to the budgets of law enforcement agencies and the prison boom of the last few years. More of the poor will become enfranchised because there will be no other alternative than to work and try to improve you station in life the old fashioned way, which will lead to more unemployment and more ppl seeking out unemploment benefits and welfare.

    The illegal drug trade gives this government a good way to pacify and manipulate it's citizenry. Almost 400,000 African American men were prevented from voting in FLA in the past presidential election. I'll bet any of u a million bucks that the majority of those felony convictions were drug related offenses. You can't do anything with dope money but spend it. So there has to be some impact on the sales tax revenues created from dope dealers who make purchases. ALso the judicial system ensures itself of plenty of business due to the revolving door offenders that the dope game creates. These are lawyers fees, court costs, phone bills, prison operation costs, jobs that the governmet doesn't have to bid out to companies because they get the prisoners to do it. etc..... There is no way that the government on it's own will legalize the dope trade. It's too big an advantage for them.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Here is a quick article from the The Christian Science Monitor (an excelent paper) regarding European drug use. Please note how only 18% of people from Holland have used Pot in the past year (AND ITS LEGAL) compared to 33% of Americans (Where its illegal!). That throws a wrench into " Drug use will go up!!!"

    MONDAY, MARCH 12, 2001

    e-mail this story to a friend
    WORLD

    Europe shifts out of drug-war mode

  • Belgium, Britain, France, and Portugal are among those moving toward the Dutch model of treatment, not arrest.
  • By Peter Ford ( [email protected])
    Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

    AMSTERDAM

    On a winter afternoon, Udi Aviaz strolls into Kadinsky's coffee shop just off one of Amsterdam's famed canals and asks to see the menu.

    But the pages of the purple-ring binder do not list drinks. They list drugs.

    Mr. Aviaz, an Israeli living in Holland, selects a joint of locally grown marijuana, orders a Coke, and sits down to listen to B.B. King while he gets high. "What I like about Holland is that the sense of paranoia is gone," he says. "I can totally enjoy smoking, and I feel quite safe."

    Holland, which has allowed the possession of small amounts of marijuana, or cannabis, for the past 25 years, was once alone in its permissive stance. But more and more European countries are following its lead and turning their backs on Washington's war on drugs. The trend is bolstered by figures showing that Holland's radical approach has not led to greater drug use, and has improved addicts' health.

    Drug consumption is generally far lower in Europe than in the US. Eighteen percent of Dutch people have smoked marijuana at least once, for example, compared with 33 percent of Americans.

    "Where the American slogan is 'Just Say No,' the European policy is 'Just Say Know,' " explains Danilo Ballotta, an expert with the Lisbon-based European Monitoring Center for Drugs and Drug Addiction, the European Union's drug agency. "Our policies are completely different, and our messages are completely different."

    The Dutch government is growing less defensive about its pioneering focus on reducing the risks that go with taking drugs: While drug possession is technically against the law, the government has chosen not to prosecute over small-scale consumption and to go after wholesale dealers and producers instead.

    Other countries are changing their focus, too. The Belgian government announced last month that it will formally decriminalize personal use of marijuana, and a similar bill is before the Luxembourg parliament. The Swiss parliament will soon debate a law permitting people to smoke cannabis, and in July a new Portuguese law comes into effect that will decriminalize the personal use of all drugs, hard and soft.

    The British government announced recently it would draw up new guidelines for police, recommending that they do nothing when small quantities of cannabis are found; French authorities do not prosecute 95 percent of cannabis-possession cases, and in Spain, Italy, and most German regions the police turn a blind eye. Only in Sweden and Greece have authorities still fixed their goal on a drug-free society.

    European drug officials insist that their policies do not mean they have surrendered to drugs.

    Dutch police regularly cooperate with their Belgian, German, and French counterparts in seizing large quantities of cannabis and other illicit substances in operations to control roads and trains.

    Instead of an all-out war on drugs, European governments are increasingly turning to what they call "harm reduction" policies. "We don't want to chase drug users," says Nicoline van der Arend, an adviser to the Dutch Minister of Justice. "If we don't arrest them and put them in prison, perhaps they will be willing to have treatment."

    "We treat them as addicts, not as criminals. The fundamental point is that this is a public-health problem more than a law-and-order problem," argues Peter Pennekamp, director general of the Dutch Health Ministry. "If you are aware that risks are being taken, you can either ignore it, or do something to reduce the risks."

    That approach has spurred the creation of needle-exchange programs throughout Western Europe, giving addicts clean syringes so as to lower the chances they will be infected with HIV or hepatitis. Germany and Spain have recently followed Holland's example and opened "shooting rooms," where drugs can be consumed under hygienic and supervised conditions. All 15 EU members run substitution programs, offering heroin addicts methadone instead. And Dutch voluntary organizations take mobile pill-testing labs to rave parties, checking the quality of the Ecstasy often sold to dancers.

    All European governments run widespread campaigns to persuade young people not to take drugs. They say this realism pays off. In Holland, for example, the number of cannabis users is about average for Europe, and the number of "problematic" hard-drug users is among the lowest on the Continent. Holland has the lowest overdose death rate in Europe, except for France. The Dutch are alone, however, in permitting coffee shops to sell as much as five grams of hashish or marijuana per customer.

    This is a bid to keep young people who want to smoke marijuana out of hard-drug circles, which they might fall into if they frequented illegal dealers.

    But the policy is full of ambiguities and paradoxes: Coffee shops may sell to customers, for example, but their suppliers are breaking the law. "We pay taxes on everything we sell," says Vijay Shamdas, the barman at Kadinsky's. "But they don't know what we bought or what it cost because they turn a blind eye."

    Few of Holland's neighbors are expected to go as far as The Hague has gone. Belgium is going half-way, decriminalizing cannabis and boosting government funds for programs that educate young people to stay away from drugs, or help rehabilitate drug addicts. "Prevention is better than cure, and a cure is better than punishment," the ministries of Health and Justice said in a joint statement.

    "We want to avoid making cannabis use seem normal, but we don't want to dramatize it either," said a government announcement. "We will put the emphasis on prevention, and the authorities should intervene only when consumption [of cannabis] gives rise to problems."

    Portugal has taken a wider approach, decriminalizing the use of all drugs as part of a new public-health strategy to be launched in July. There, says Mr. Ballotta, "decriminalization is a tool to improve the treatment option. You keep the user out of prison, so that you can try to start a treatment and rehabilitation process."

    After years of vilification from neighboring governments for running a "narco-state," Dutch officials are quietly pleased to see their policies copied. "We say that our policy suits The Netherlands, that people should take the information here and fit it to their countries," says Mr. Pennekamp. "Slowly people are getting inspired."

    Home | Archive | Subscriptions | Get Free E-mail Update | Send Editor E-mail | Monitor Talk | Today's Paper | @csmonitor.com | About Us/Help | Feedback


    . Copyright 2001 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved.

  • SpannerintheWorks
    SpannerintheWorks

    Crazy,

    The Christian Science

    Are you a member of this religion?

    Spanner

  • SpannerintheWorks
    SpannerintheWorks

    BTW,

    You have not answered any of my responses.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Christian Science religion??? NO NO NO Christian Science MONITOR !! Its a Newspaper Spanner and darn good one! Usually a little on the conservative side. Sorry, Im not into Ron Hubbards bullshit.

    Here is another article from the BBS:

    http://bbsnews.net/bw2003-01-21.html

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    BTW,

    You have not answered any of my responses.

    Which ones?? Will you then answer mine???

  • SpannerintheWorks
    SpannerintheWorks

    Crazy,

    Once again you PRESUME that by legalizing drugs consumption would increase and in reality, this is not the case

    Oh? Do you have evidence of this?

    It stays the same.

    See comment above.

    Holland is a perfect example. Many types of drugs are not only legal, but they sell them

    Which drugs? LSD? Heroin?

    Holland's crime rate is EXTREMELY low.

    That's just because they are nice people! I mean, look at Vivamus!

    Which leads to: If consumption will not increase

    Once again, you PRESUME consumption will not increase.

    why are drugs illegal??

    Good question. Why are certain things illegal? Why is paedophilia illegal? Why is murder, rape and suicide (yes, even self-inflicted

    death) illegal?

    Spanner

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker
    Oh? Do you have evidence of this?

    In the article I posted it showed that marajuana use was only 18% in Holland by population whereas in the U.S. its around 33%.

    Which drugs? LSD? Heroin?

    Current Marijauana, Hash, Mushrooms, and Peyote are legal. Hard drugs such as Heroin are not. However, Heroin and cocaine users are treated for their problems and not thrown in jail. They also have clean needle exchanges etc..etc...

    That's just because they are nice people! I mean, look at Vivamus!

    Nice people are part of the equation. Holland also does not have a very violent culture like we do in the U.S. Sex is appreciated in Holland, whereas as it is generally shamed here in the U.S.

    Once again, you PRESUME consumption will not increase.

    Actually, like I have shown, consumption of Legal drugs in Holland is actually LOWER than in the U.S. where it is legal!

    Good question. Why are certain things illegal? Why is paedophilia illegal? Why is murder, rape and suicide (yes, even self-inflicted

    death) illegal?

    I answered this on a previous page. Our laws are based on the concept of do not hurt others. Thats why murder, peadophillia, molestation, rape, torture, etc..etc... are illegal. The Govt general doesnt care if you hurt yourself or drink your self to death. Suicide is illegal (whats the point) due to our religious background (people who kill themselves go to hell and we wouldnt want that....).

    So, on to my questions: If consumption would not increase (and it may in fact decrease) why are drugs illegal??? Why do you support a policy that has not worked for the past 40years?

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