joann-
Actually United States Policy is generally to turn a blind eye unless that country directly opposes the USA.
assuming youre familiar with operation restore hope, please explain how mohammed farah aidid directly opposed the u.s.a.
aa
Is North Korea getting out of hand?
by JH 80 Replies latest jw friends
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dubla
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Realist
thichi,
Every place the US has left (like Iran), the rulers are worse than the people we were dealing with.
sorry this is just wrong.
just look at the example you picked...iran had a leader named mossadeq (as joanna pointed out). this man tried to make iran a flourishing coutry. he put the oil production in the hands of the iranian state (it was previously owned to 90% by britan the US and france)...and wanted to use the money to modernize his poor country. the was overthrown and killed by opposers with the help of the CIA.
than the US put the corrupt and criminal shah into place....and only the activities of this ruler made it possible for the fundamentalists to get enough followers to take over in iran. the situation there is to a LARGE extend the fault of the US gov.
Edited by - realist on 7 February 2003 12:18:23
Edited by - realist on 7 February 2003 13:0:49
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rem
I believe hindsight is 20/20 and it's pretty easy to criticize tactical maneuvers the US has made in the past with what we know now. I think the things that were done probably made sense in the context of the times they were in (Cold War), though strategically they were not the best ideas long term. But the point is, at the time, was there really a better alternative to solve the short term problem? There are many cases in politics where you are dealing with the 'lesser of two evils'. Decisions that seem bizzare or shortsighted to us today may have been the best solution at the time and to impose our current knowledge on the situation is anachronistic.
rem
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ThiChi
"thichi,
Every place the US has left (like Iran), the rulers are worse than the people we were dealing with.
sorry this is just wrong"
Realist:
You are rewriting history:
(mossadeq was a nut. He was known for walking around in pajamas and crying. Please, give me a break! I won't even go into his USSR connection)
Here is a list of the rulers pre-USA. Autocrats that brought war and death to millions. Intolerance was the order of the day. What a bloody history. Qajar, etc., all bloody history and agression.
Your effort to white wash history and its rulers will not stand. I am ready to discuss any Iran ruler in the last 1500 years......Bring it on!
Qajar
Aqa Mohammad Shah, 1796 - 1797
Fath Ali Shah, 1797 - 1834
Mohammad Shah, 1834 - 1848
Naser ed-Din Shah, 1848 - 1896
Mozaffar ed-Din Shah, 1896 - 1907
Mohammad Ali Shah, 1907 - 1909
Ahmad Shah, 1909 - 1925
Pahlavi
Reza Shah, 1925 - 1941
Mohammad Reza Shah, 1941 - 1979
Islamic Republic
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, 1979 - June 1989
I stand by my statements!
Edited by - thichi on 7 February 2003 13:22:55
Edited by - thichi on 7 February 2003 13:37:43
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ThiChi
REM:
I agree. Dynamics of Nations and relationships change all the time. Those who once were friends are now not...It is nothing new.
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Crazy151drinker
Joan my dear:
Last time I checked it was North Korea who started the Korean war by INVADING the South.
If you want to look at pure #s North Korea could take over the South (They did it TWICE last time .....)
And while the U.S. has turned a Blind Eye towards many starving people so has the REST of the WORLD. Last time I checked the UN didnt do a damn thing about Rwanda and the French sure didnt give a shit about POL POT so please apply your standards to the Rest of the World. Nowhere am I saying that we are some Holy Moral Country Empowered by God to save the world. All I am saying is that we have the most Freedoms of Any People and when you consider that we are the most powerfull country in the Planet that is quite an accomplishment. Also, never in the History of Man has a country with our Power shown so much RESTRAINT. We could invade countless countries but we DO NOT.
Look what the Soviets did with their power. Look at the OPRESSION that the Chinese instigate with theirs...and we are the bad guys?? Sure the U.S. has done bad things, however, we have in No Way commited the kind of brutality of Stalin and Mao.
And the REASON the U.S. didnt get involved in WWII in the Beggining was because a bunch of ISOLATIONALIST PANSIES didnt want to get involved! (I guess we didnt learn a lesson from WWI) So blame yourselves that all those Jews died and thank the Japanese for Pearl.
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joannadandy
Thi-Chi
Can you name another alternative?
All I can do is echo Realists comments. I have no problem waiting for the UN to finish it's investigation and the UN to choose from the evidence they have comiled as to if war is the answer, or if perhaps some other diplomatic measures can be used. I don't see the threat to the United States that requires us to "go it alone". Iraq people are suffering. If we are talking about liberation, then let's talk about liberation. But if we are talking "terrorisim and weapons of mass destruction" the drums for war don't yet point to that conclusion...tho it might come out later that infact we do need to go to that final resort, namely war.
(mossadeq was a nut. He was known for walking around in pajamas and crying. Please, give me a break! I won't even go into his USSR connection)
And J. Edgar Hoover wore a dress. Do we need to start a thread about the insane things and ravings that our own Presidents have done? I fail to see how this has anything to do with the discussion at hand, and is only attacking the persoon, not the policies.
Here is a list of the rulers pre-USA. Autocrats that brought war and death to millions. Intolerance was the order of the day. What a bloody history. Qajar, etc., all bloody history and agression.
You are so right. All a bunch of blood thirsty blundering idiots. Much of the history you detail is prior to the United States as a world power, so there was little to be done, by this governement at least. But why do we care now, today, what happens to these people? Or favoritisim runs hot and cold in this region in the world, and I don't know why. If you can offer me answers I would greatly appreciate it because you do have extensive knowledge of the history of this region (which, might I just add, is a breath of fresh air compared to most people who couldn't even find Iraq on a map). Why was it ok for us to give weapons to Iraq in the 80's to fight the Iranians? Why did we encourage Hussien to develop chemical weapons so he could gas the Kurdish? Why was he an ok ruthless dictator back then, and an "evil" doer today? I'm not being sarcastic here at all...I am trying to puzzle this out myself. If you can offer any assistance I would appreciate it.
Dubla-
Actually United States Policy is generally to turn a blind eye unless that country directly opposes the USA.
assuming youre familiar with operation restore hope, please explain how mohammed farah aidid directly opposed the u.s.a.
Please note, I did say generally. Not always. Which is part of my problem. Why do we enforce rules and regulations with some and not all?
Crazy151-
Last time I checked it was North Korea who started the Korean war by INVADING the South.
If you want to look at pure #s North Korea could take over the South (They did it TWICE last time .....)
That is correct. They did invade the South Koreans. However they were a different nation then. One that did not face the massive starvation, drought, and economic failure that they have dealt with for the past 20 some odd years. My point is only they are in no position to invade their neighbors at this moment. If you talk to any South Koreans (at least the ones I have talked to) or read any of their newspapers, you will find they don't fear an "invasion" from the North. In fact there is a strong movement to reunite the two countries which is a great divide. Many who remember the ruthless nature of the communist governement don't want anything to do with them, while the younger ones would like reconciliation. I'm actually not even sure why you are arguing with me since I am in agreement with you that North Korea must be dealt with and they are problem. I just feel they can be dealt with (and probably will be dealt with,because I don't at this time forsee us sending troops to North Korea) in a diplomatic fashion. The only thing we disagree on is the type of threat the pose. (Which is minor in the grand scheme of things, don't you think?)
And while the U.S. has turned a Blind Eye towards many starving people so has the REST of the WORLD. Last time I checked the UN didnt do a damn thing about Rwanda and the French sure didnt give a shit about POL POT so please apply your standards to the Rest of the World.
You are exactly right! And it's disgusting and it makes me angry. I would love nothing more than to apply the same standards to the rest of the world. I asked this question of Thi-Chi, and would like to hear your thoughts too...why does the United States get to decide what battles and what people are worthy of liberation and assistance? Why are Palentinan lives less important? Palestine is an occupied state at present and despite many UN madates forbidding such behavior, the United States encourages and helps fund the Isreali army. Why? Why is forced oppresion ok from some countries and not others?
Nowhere am I saying that we are some Holy Moral Country Empowered by God to save the world
I never said you said this, and I don't believe you believe this. I would question George Bush, and ask him if he believes this because his rhetoric, or at least that of his speech writers, would suggest that he does.
Look what the Soviets did with their power. Look at the OPRESSION that the Chinese instigate with theirs...and we are the bad guys?? Sure the U.S. has done bad things, however, we have in No Way commited the kind of brutality of Stalin and Mao.
Again I agree 100%. But the you must admit the United States does like to take the moral highground and talk about it's high standards and love of human rights, when in fact we are just as guilty as those we point figers at when it comes to human rights violations.
And the REASON the U.S. didnt get involved in WWII in the Beggining was because a bunch of ISOLATIONALIST PANSIES didnt want to get involved! (I guess we didnt learn a lesson from WWI) So blame yourselves that all those Jews died and thank the Japanese for Pearl.
Actually the United States stayed out of WWI for money reasons. We wanted to ship goods to both Germany and the UK, but we couldn't continue to do so, so we had to finally pick a side. And I would like to point out your are mistaking passivity for pacifism. There is a big difference. Sitting back and doing "nothing" has never been a stance I have been in favor of. But charging in with guns blazing when we have no backing from the rest of the world, nor much substantial evidence to warrant us doing so, is also something I am not in favor of. -
ThiChi
I ask once more: Can you name a better alternative? Can you name one Nation on earth that has never been invaded? Injustice can be found anywhere. You are caught in the justice trap. Get out! All aspects must be considered. Not just one aspect.
We have persons/nations out there training day and night to undermined our values, encroach our boarders, kill our young men and violate our women. Can you say 911?
All in all, the US is benevolent. After WWll , and unlike Russia, we rebuilt Japan and West Germany, we did not enslave them. Our record of giving $$ is unmatched.
I only wish the French was part of our coalition, someone must show the Iraqis how to surrender...
"""UN........other diplomatic measures can be used""
This has been going on for 11 years now!!! Come on!
Edited by - thichi on 7 February 2003 15:47:57
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ThiChi
"Palestine is an occupied state"
Wrong! Name the national Bird of Palestine? National song? Why can't you? Because there was never a Palestine national government or State. They were called the Greater Syrian Arabs before 1945. Why the name change. You do the research ........
However, the Jews have History and archaeology that are witnesses to the a claim for the last 3,000 years.
And these "Syrian Arabs" are not allowed to mix with the other Arab Nations, why? Why do these Arab use camps to house them? Are they not Brothers? Propaganda and a rewrite of history is no proof of any point you are trying to make! IMHO
The US is on the right side!
Edited by - thichi on 7 February 2003 16:16:7
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Realist
thichi,
unfortunately you provide very litte (actually no) evidence but pointlessly insult other nations.
beside the fact that i have seen many reports and read a lot about iran and mossadeq and not a single one mention his pyjama fetish, even if it is true i don't see any point in bringing it up. i can only repeat what Joanna said....what in the world does wearing pyjamas has to with anything?
this man was intended to help his people...as you pointed out the only one in a long time. and he was murdered by the US for doing it.
one more thing...just because someone is a communist or works together with them doesn'T make him a bad person. communism was a great idea...unfortunately didn't work out though.
We have persons/nations out there training day and night to undermined our values, encroach our boarders, kill our young men and violate our women. Can you say 911?
these nations would not care about the US if the US wouldn't be involved in their affairs. (which doesn'T make their fanatism any better...but in all fairness it was the west who attacked them not the other way around). if they would hate our lifestyle so much then they would also attack europe...which the do not.
I only wish the French was part of our coalition, someone must show the Iraqis how to surrender...
pointless attack that disqualifies you partially.
Our record of giving $$ is unmatched.
sorry not true...the US has one of the lowest foreign aid budgets in the western world.
Palestine is an occupied state
palestine is an occupied territory...with inhabitants that don't want to be ruled by israel. that is enough reason in my eyes to give them their territory back. how would you feel if someone would occupy your state and claim...well flroida or california etc. where never an independent nation?
However, the Jews have History and archaeology that are witnesses to the a claim for the last 3,000 years.
not ture. they have no history of being important in israel for almost 2000 years. yes they were unrightly expelled from the region...but that was 2000 years ago. unfortunately noone can go all the way back and claim all the land that belonged to them at some point in the last 5000 years. ...otherwise the indians would have the same right about the US, NO? the germans about poland, etc.etc.
Edited by - realist on 7 February 2003 19:19:20