The Show of Over-Patriotism Astounds Me

by D8TA 113 Replies latest jw friends

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    17 replies and not one lists any freedom they have lost. Yet, this thread is all about how we are losing freedom.

    Not to worry, though. I'm sure if you all join hands and sing a few chorus' of Kumbaya, any planned terrorist attacks will miss you.

    However, I wonder why none of you were as outraged when smokers lost their freedom to light up in public? Or, why no moral indignation as the freedom of gun ownership is slowly stripped away? I do have to admit that a few of you saw no problem with curtailing the freedom of a drunk to drive his car. No one seemed to mind as the ACLU filed case after case to stop prayer and showing of the ten commandments in schools and other public places, don't those that have that belief have a freedom to exercise it? Or, is your freedom to not believe more important that theirs to believe?

    I would like the freedom to keep more of my paycheck, yet as taxes crept ever more skywayrd, none of you seemed to be outraged at that.

    So, I ask again, just what freedom are you leftist whining about losing? You are all active on the internet, that hasn't been curtailed. You all come and go as you please, that is still there. So many have spoken against Bush and his policies, I haven't heard of any one of you being arrested. I don't believe any of you are posting from inside any American concentration camp. Just what freedom have you lost?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Dakota

    It's till mostly in the development stages. Though i haven't read much of the details. At this point, one of the main issues is 'posse comitatus', soldiers serving inside the country, hence giving too much power to the federal govt. Here is a site w a lot of info:

    http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lewis.html

    SS

  • D8TA
    D8TA

    This is what is lost due to the Patriot Act:

    FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

    FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

    FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

    RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

    FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

    RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

    RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them

    As to people being arrested, well..did you READ the Patriot Act? See how that you CAN NOT get information if such "suspects" or "people" are arrested?

    So, you are saying, since YOU don't personally know anybody getting arrested or whose rights are being violated then it must not exist. Nice way to bury one's in the sand.

    Like I said, give it some time....that in a few weeks...you will KNOW somebody from THIS board whose rights have been violated.

    I don't hang my ass out in the air for no reason. I don't say, "I told you so" for no reason.

    And by the way, I hope you enjoy buying your next book at a book store and/or checking one out at the library:

    FBI Begins Visiting LibrairiesBy Christopher Newton
    Associated Press Writer

    from The Washington Post
    www.washingtonpost.com

    Monday, June 24, 2002, 5:38 PM

    WASHINGTON The FBI is visiting libraries nationwide and checking the reading records of people it suspects of having ties to terrorists or plotting an attack, library officials say.

    The FBI effort, authorized by the antiterrorism law enacted after the Sept. 11 attacks, is the first broad government check of library records since the 1970s when prosecutors reined in the practice for fear of abuses.

    The Justice Department and FBI declined to comment Monday, except to note that such searches are now legal under the Patriot Act that President Bush signed last October.

    Libraries across the nation were reluctant to discuss their dealings with the FBI. The same law that makes the searches legal also makes it a criminal offense for librarians to reveal the details or extent.

    "Patron information is sacrosanct here. It's nobody's business what you read," said Kari Hanson, director of the Bridgeview Public Library in suburban Chicago.

    Hanson said an FBI agent came seeking information about a person, but her library had no record of the person. Federal prosecutors allege Global Relief Foundation, an Islamic charity based in the Chicago suburb, has ties to Osama bin Laden's terror network

    The University of Illinois conducted a survey of 1,020 public libraries in January and February and found that 85 libraries had been asked by federal or local law enforcement officers for information about patrons related to Sept. 11, said Ed Lakner, assistant director of research at the school's Library Research Center.

    The libraries that reported FBI contacts were nearly all in large urban areas.

    In Florida, Broward County library director Sam Morrison said the FBI had recently contacted his office. He declined to elaborate on the request or how many branch libraries were involved.
    "We've heard from them and that's all I can tell you," Morrison said. He said the FBI specifically instructed him not to reveal any information about the request.

    The library system has been contacted before. A week after the Sept. 11 attacks, the FBI subpoenaed Morrison to provide information on the possible use of computer terminals by some of the suspected hijackers in the Hollywood, Fla., area.

    In October, investigators revisited the county's main library in Fort Lauderdale and also checked a regional library in Coral Springs. At least 15 of the 19 hijackers had Florida connections.

    The process by which the FBI gains access to library records is quick and mostly secret under the Patriot Act.

    First, the FBI must obtain a search warrant from a court that meets in secret to hear the agency's case.

    The FBI must show it has reason to suspect that a person is involved with a terrorist or a terrorist plot far less difficult than meeting the tougher legal standards of probable cause, required for traditional search warrants or reasonable doubt, required for convictions.

    With the warrant, FBI investigators can visit a library and gain immediate access to the records.

    Judith Krug, the American Library Association's director for intellectual freedom, said the FBI was treading on the rights it is supposed to be upholding.
    "It's unfortunate because these records and this information can be had with so little reason or explanation," Krug said. "It's super secret and anyone who wants to talk about what the FBI did at their library faces prosecution. That has nothing to do with patriotism."

    Krug tells worried librarians who call that they should keep only the records they need and should discard records that would reveal which patron checked out a book and for how long.

    She is frustrated by the hate mail she says she receives when she speaks out against the Patriot Act.
    "People are scared and they think that by giving up their rights, especially their right to privacy, they will be safe," Krug said. "But it wasn't the right to privacy that let terrorists into our nation. It had nothing to do with libraries or library records."

    Some libraries said they will still resist government efforts to obtain records. Pat McCandless, assistant director for public services for Ohio State University's libraries, said, "State law and professional ethics say we do not convey patron information and that is still our stance."

    "To the best of our ability, we would try to support patron confidentiality," she said.

    2002 The Associated Press

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    The FBI effort, authorized by the antiterrorism law enacted after the Sept. 11 attacks, is the first broad government check of library records since the 1970s when prosecutors reined in the practice for fear of abuses.

    Gee, that's interesting... 'since the 1970's" .... that's about the last time I really felt safe.... hmmm.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound

    Thanks D8TA! Dakota what do you say to that?

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Let's see, the "may," they "might," they "possibly could." And heaven forbid, the FBI visited a library. What books did they collect and burn? Or, is it that they may look at what is being said on a PUBLIC computer?

    Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

    Criminal Investigations: Tracking and Gathering

    Communications

    Federal communications privacy law features a three tiered system, erected for the

    dual purpose of protecting the confidentiality of private telephone, face-to-face, and

    computer communications while enabling authorities to identify and intercept criminal

    communications. Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968

    supplies the first level. It prohibits electronic eavesdropping on telephone conversations,

    face-to-face conversations, or computer and other forms of electronic communications in

    most instances. It does, however, give authorities a narrowly defined process for

    electronic surveillance to be used as a last resort in serious criminal cases. When

    approved by senior Justice Department officials, law enforcement officers may seek a

    court order authorizing them to secretly capture conversations concerning any of a

    statutory list of offenses (predicate offenses). Title III court orders come replete with

    instructions describing the permissible duration and scope of the surveillance as well as

    the conversations which may be seized and the efforts to be taken to minimize the seizure

    of innocent conversations. The court notifies the parties to any conversations seized

    under the order after the order expires.

    Below Title III, the next tier of privacy protection covers telephone records, e-mail

    held in third party storage, and the like, 18 U.S.C. 2701-2709 (Chapter 121). Here, the

    law permits law enforcement access, ordinarily pursuant to a warrant or court order or

    under a subpoena in some cases, but in connection with any criminal investigation and

    without the extraordinary levels of approval or constraint that mark a Title III interception.

    Least demanding and perhaps least intrusive of all is the procedure that governs court

    orders approving the governments use of trap and trace devices and pen registers, a kind

    of secret caller id., which identify the source and destination of calls made to and from

    a particular telephone, 18 U.S.C. 3121-3127 (Chapter 206). The orders are available

    based on the government's certification, rather than a finding of a court, that use of the

    device is likely to produce information relevant to the investigation of a crime, any crime.

    The devices record no more than identity of the participants in a telephone conversation,

    but neither the orders nor the results they produce need ever be revealed to the

    participants.

    D8TA, try reading the act for yourself instead of listening to those who want to return to political power by any means. You have not lost a single freedom at all. Troops are not roaming the streets gunning down innocent civilians. No one is being monitored due to religious belief or political leanings. However, I would agree that any who advocate the destruction of our civilization do merit monitoring. There are no mass concentration camps where "hundreds of innocent people" are being held. Yes, Al Qeada operatives are being held in Cuba and questioned. Last I heard, they weren't made citizens as they were captured. No one has shown any to be tortured or beaten, as their mentors have been known to do.

    As for buying books, I just bought some with no problem. Funny thing, I wasn't strip searched for it. No one wanted a National ID nor did the FBI, CIA, or NSA follow me home. Hell, I even opened it and read it. Imagine that! When I drive by the library, I see many people going in and out, obtaining books and I presume, actually reading them.

    The only scandalous subject we have faced in our library here is the librarians insistence that underage children have the freedom to access Playboy, Penthouse and such at the library, if they wish.

    Your near panic state is very unbecoming and your "I told you so" greatly over rated and premature. However, if you and the other Leftists here are given your way, the next "I told you so" will be another terrorist attack somewhere in the country, possible with a larger loss of life than the last one. Some have already been uncovered and prevented. I guess we should all be outraged that their freedom to murder was infringed, right?

    That's what I say, Charlie!

    Edited by - DakotaRed on 9 February 2003 16:21:54

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Dakota,

    D8TA, try reading the act for yourself instead of listening to those who want to return to political power by any means. You have not lost a single freedom at all. Troops are not roaming the streets gunning down innocent civilians. No one is being monitored due to religious belief or political leanings. However, I would agree that any who advocate the destruction of our civilization do merit monitoring. There are no mass concentration camps where "hundreds of innocent people" are being held. Yes, Al Qeada operatives are being held in Cuba and questioned. Last I heard, they weren't made citizens as they were captured. No one has shown any to be tortured or beaten, as their mentors have been known to do.

    Of course the problem isn't now - we're talking about what may very well develop in the future. The very near future. Hopefully YOU ARE RIGHT and this policy will only protect us and incriminate those who are truly guilty of planning terrorists attacks on this country!

    But what one must realize is that these very laws that are built on the principle of incriminating the potential "terrorist" can also incriminate US if we are suddenly considered a "terrorist" by the government. A "terrorist" could be anyone against the USA or supporting interests, political parties, etc. contrary to their regime.

    It's just something to think and be aware of. Do you agree??

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Dakota Red,

    I'm afraid you're wasting your time with D8TA. Conspiratists are all alike. The people who say this War with Iraq is about oil were the same people who said our war with Iraq 12 years ago was about oil. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. If Bush senior and company wanted to control Iraqi oil, why didn't he? Our military vanquished their armies. Not only did we not take control of any of their oil, we ended up by suffering higher prices because of the embargo that's been in places for the last decade.

    I get sick and tired of all those liberals saying that everything is all OUR fault. That's all liberals can do is blame, blame, blame, and never offer sensible solutions. What solutions by the liberals have been offered to rein in Sadaam if we don't go to war? I'll tell you: none. They don't have any.

    All they have to offer is blame. Oh, and wacky consiracy theories, too. The United Nations IS impotent and irrelevant. We don't need it, but it certainly needs us. We have our friends (and France are Germany ARE our friends) and we have our enemies. Are friends will remain our friends, UN or no UN and our enemies will remain our enemies, UN or no UN. Our greatest enemy of nearly a Century is now our friend. China is xenophobic and hasn't been interested in vast conquests since the 12th Century. Almost all of our enemies are ruthless dictators or religious crackpots, and none of them are first world nations. On the contrary, they're backwards, mostly illiterate two-bit countries that hate us for what we have, including a standard of living, and liberty and freedoms they cannot enjoy. And many of them they hate us because we don't share their wacky blood-thirsty religious views.

    The only other foes we have are those American crackpots who believe all the crap those two-bit countries are saying about our Country when those countries cannot even get their own houses in order.

    Farkel

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    I don't see any of this stuff as being my fault. I didn't vote for Bush, and he didn't win the popular vote.

    It's all too confusing. The government will do what they want to do. They always have and always will. So much for us having a say............we don't really.

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    D8TA,

    No use in trying teach an old dog new tricks. Once they get caught up in their vision, any voice of reason cannot steer them clear an inch in either direction.

    When discussing anything contrary to their vision, you're labeled as some negative political category that automatically labels you as insane and not knowing what you're talking about.

    No matter what proof you provide, it's never good enough.

    Anything that doesn't support the propaganda given to us by Fox network is a conspiracy theory and therefore merits no validity whatsoever.

    Their arguments go round and round in the same predictable pattern every single time. Evidence for support of a statement is always based on an action they feel should have happened previously if the latter would prove to be correct and is never based on the facts presented. In fact, no matter how often you state the facts, they will without question go back to the same weak argument as support, when in essence the reality of life is that what happened 10 years ago happened 10 years ago. We're in a totally different scenario now - it's 2003 baby.

    I find it quite amusing how people are so quick to label someone as a 'wacky conspiratist' or 'hard-core environmentalist' and then don't respond when you challenge them on what you say. I started a thread about this simply to test the water, and it proved true. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=45395&site=3

    It's too bad some people haven't grasped the fact that you cannot trust everyone, especially politicians. Just like the JW's, they paint a beautiful picture and bark a strong, convincing argument, but when you dissect the organization you find all the dirt and uncover the real story which is all about control of the masses which equals MONEY IN THEIR POCKET.

    The similarities are so obvious it's scary. Sad to escape one and plunge head first into the other.

    I'd have to agree with the subject of this thread.

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