Evolution or Creation??

by dottie 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    rem; very well put.

    Hooberus; great link, nice to have a little something to laugh at whilst I drink my coffee;

    Because the time available for geologic work is so compressed by the Biblical record, any effort to understand the relationships between the rocks and time may be actually misdirecting workers away from more profitable investigations of geologic history.

    The relationships between rocks and time doesn't fit with what we want to believe, so we'll ignore it.

    We fear that the first steps of this path may be taken anew in the twentieth century by seeking to harmonize the Bible with the GUC. It is our opinion that a viable creationist stratigraphy requires adherence to Scripture and eschews modification of a biblical worldview to accommodate uniformitarianism.

    We've decided the Bible is right and we'll modify our interpretation of the world to fit in with it.

    The Current Divide Within Creationist Stratigraphy

    We can't even agree amongst ourselves, which is a bummer, as we always point to dispute in evolutionist's ranks as a sign of their theories being false

    We fear an epistemological imbalance between Scripture and uniformitarian geology. Contrary to modern positivism, we assert that biblical revelation is primary and superior to any naturalist interpretation of history. Thus, there can be no balanced comparison between the “truth of science” and the truth of Scripture in an attempt to reconcile the two. Rather, any interpretation of history that rejects biblical revelation should in turn be rejected and its interpretive results should be carefully examined for all hidden presuppositions implanted by the naturalist framework.

    We've decided the Bible is right. Any evidence that indicates that the Bible is not right should be rejeceted. In doing so, being presuppositionalists as we are, we have to be hypocritical in pointing to suppositions in evolutionists' and conventional geologists' theories, even though there is an evidentary trial or logical reason for their presuppostions, whilst ours are based on a book that cannot be proven as divinely inspired (unless we presuppose it is and reject evidence to the contrary).

    Advances in creationist stratigraphy have been frustratingly slow in the last four decades. There has been no direct impact in the secular geologic community. This is because the naturalists have been quick to realize the fundamental nature of the challenge of creationism not just to their historical scenarios, but to their very worldview. With few workers, creationist geology has been both slow to develop alternate interpretations and confusing to those workers who have insisted on the priority of following the GUC in their work. Some researchers have discovered that the gulf between the GUC and the Bible is wider than first hoped. Some have not been able to shift their assumptions toward the Scriptures, and have become advocates of a theistic version of uniformitarianism that does no justice to Genesis. Others have not vigorously pursued their models to logical conclusions, and thus work with inconsistencies in their framework.
    Over the past four decades various strategies for using the GUC as a framework for biblical history have been proposed by creationists. We have examined three of these proposals against the strata found within the NGOMB. All of these approaches fail either because of the time/energy demands of the sedimentary record relative to a short post-Flood history.

    We have no decent theories.

    Failure to discard bad ideas will only lead to greater confusion in creation science.

    We have no sense of irony, and little ability to be introspective.

    We hope that other creationists will focus their efforts developing concepts and models that eschew the GUC. By changing this conceptual framework, we can open new doors to understanding geology and the Bible, we can focus our studies on understanding the Flood’s impact on the Antediluvian world, and we can jettison the evolutionary baggage that permeates the GUC. We hope this will lead to greater productivity as we base our investigations more consciously on Scripture instead of worrying about how to make the Bible work within a system based on evolution.We hope that other creationists will focus their efforts developing concepts and models that eschew the GUC. By changing this conceptual framework, we can open new doors to understanding geology and the Bible, we can focus our studies on understanding the Flood’s impact on the Antediluvian world, and we can jettison the evolutionary baggage that permeates the GUC. We hope this will lead to greater productivity as we base our investigations more consciously on Scripture instead of worrying about how to make the Bible work within a system based on evolution.

    There is hope ahead. If we ignore the real world enough, we'll be able to come up with some corking theories based oin the Bible.

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    I have more useful activities to engage in than dabbling into subjects that nobody will bend. I'm for Creation, period. If your for evolution, period. I don't have to prove anything and neither do you. So, let's go have a drink.

    Guest 77

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Contrary to modern positivism, we assert that biblical revelation is primary and superior to any naturalist interpretation of history

    Hooberus, do you agree with this assertion? If so, do you concede that no amount of evidence can ever cause you to change your position?

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    rem said: The flood is not falsifiable. Well, it is in the literalist biblical sense, but the problem is that creation apologists keep tweaking the flood theory until it's non-falsifiable. Yes people spend a lot of time showing that there is no evidence that it happened, but creationists continue to put it forward as evidence because they have many ad hoc arguments that keep it from being completely falsifiable.

    Ther theory that the majority of the geologic column was laid down in a short period is just as falsifiable as the theory that it was laid down over long time periods.

    If "the problem is that creation apologists keep tweaking the flood theory until it's non-falsifiable," then it must also be said that the problem is that evolutionary apologists keep tweaking the theory of geologic periods theory untill it's non-falsifiable (Para-Conformities anyone?).

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Abaddon, funkyderek, my post in which I posted my link was simply to show that there are creationist geologic theories which have componets that are subject to falsification to the same extent as evolutionary geologic theories. This does not mean that I or all creationists agree with everything in the arcticle. The point is that just as the evolutionary concept of long geologic ages has componets which are subject to possible falsification so does the crerationist concept of geology.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    rem said: This whole discussion is getting to be pointless and repetetive. The whole reason I brought up the falsifiability of creation is that it is not useful.

    The reason why I am discussing the falsifiablity issue is to show that the evolutionary and creation models are similar in their degree of falsibility. Thus the often repeated claim that evolution is falsible and creation is not is itself false. While I'm sure that you will disagree with some of the conclusions of this chart, it does show that there are componets of both theories that are falsifiable and non-falsifiable, as well as the fact that for all practical purposes both share the same degree of falsifiability.

    http://www.trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp

    Comparison of the Evolutionary & Creationary Origins Theories
    Phenomenon/Condition

    Creation
    Hypothesis

    Evolution
    Hypothesis

    Predominant a priori Assumptions (i.e., Philosophical Basis) concerning the Nature, Source, and Limits of Knowledge [4]

    As with all man’s endeavors, true science will inevitably honor the Creator and affirm the Bible as His true and accurate record, wherever it addresses the historical past

    Man’s scientific endeavors will inevitably affirm man’s autonomy and independence in determining what is true and what is false

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    No

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    No

    Predominant approach
    to the Bible
    [5]

    The biblical record is accepted as a reliable historical basis of interpreting empirical data

    The biblical record is rejected as a reliable historical basis, and replaced with strict philosophical naturalism as a basis of interpreting empirical data

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    No

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    No

    Ultimate Primal Cause of Time, Space, and Matter/Energy [6]

    God Created...

    Time, space, and matter are either eternal or self-created.

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Complexity, Variety and Adaptability in Living Organisms and Ecological Systems [7]

    Inherent and complete in original populations as created; manifested (and subject to degradation) over time through genetic variation and natural selection

    Increased over time from zero via DNA copying errors (i.e., mutations), natural selection, and millions of years

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    Yes

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Massive amounts of Coded Genetic Information [8]

    Inherent and complete in original populations as created; sum total has steadily declined over time via mutational degradation

    Increased over time from zero via DNA copying errors (i.e., mutations), natural selection, and millions of years

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    Yes

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Similarities, ranging from Genetic to Morphological, between various Organisms [9]

    Indicative of Creator’s prerogative to employ similar or identical structures or information sequences for similar structures or similar functions in different organisms

    Residual evidence that multiple different organisms descended from common ancestors

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    No

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    No

    Billions of Organisms quickly Buried in sedimentary Rock Layers laid down by Water all over the Earth [10]

    Global Flood & aftermath

    Millions of years of gradual or intermittent burial

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    No

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    No

    The Ice Age [11]

    Post-Flood climate compensation

    Unknown

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    No

    No

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    No

    Entropy Law as formalized in the Second Law of Thermodynamics [12]

    Concurs, indicating a beginning (concurrent with or close to beginning of time) followed by constant degradation

    Contradicts, postulating mechanism-free constant increase in order, complexity, and genetic information

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    Yes

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Apparent Order or Sequence in Fossil Record [13]

    General pattern of ecological zones quickly buried from lower to higher elevations; variations expected

    Strict pattern of million-year depositions from “simple” to “complex”; variations (i.e., anomalies) problematic

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    Yes

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Erratic “Ages” given by Radiometric and various other Uniformitarian Processes [14]

    Residual effect of catastrophic processes and conditions during the flood

    Selective and dogmatic use of supportive “ages” & dismissal or disparagement of any conflicting indicators

    Empirically Falsifiable?

    Yes

    Yes

    Empirically Falsified?

    No

    Yes

    Table 2. The so-called “non-existent” creation theory, when examined with a measure of objectivity, manages to explain most empirical data with at least as much credibility as the evolutionary counterpart.
  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    If "the problem is that creation apologists keep tweaking the flood theory until it's non-falsifiable," then it must also be said that the problem is that evolutionary apologists keep tweaking the theory of geologic periods theory untill it's non-falsifiable (Para-Conformities anyone?).

    This is exactly why discussing with you is pointless! You speak without understanding. Clear explanations and examples have been given and you just go back to erroneous conclusions. Evolution is falsifiable - the fact that we have medications and treatments that are derived from this theory (and they work) prove its falsifiability. Creationism, in the generally accepted form, is not falsifiable and has not added to our knowledge of biology and helped us solve any scientific problems.
    You have not been able to counter this defficiency in the various 'theories' of creation that you seem to support. If a theory can't help us learn anything more about ourselves or add to science and technology then there is something seriously wrong with it.
    Wake up, man.
    rem
  • Chap
    Chap

    funkyderek said:

    The earth is simply not a closed system from a thermodynamic perspective. If it was, it's temperature would constantly decrease until it reached the temperature of the universe around it (about 3K). Don't worry, in the long term it will, but not before allowing a lot of interesting things to happen here.

    The above statement seems contradictory. I guess in the short term, since the earth receives energy from the sun, it is an open system. But since the earth is part of the universe which is a closed system, it is part of a closed system. Therefore, the entropy of earth is both increasing and decreasing? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? What about the entropy of the other planets which receive energy from a sun? I guess we can say the entropy is increasing because we don't have to explain anything away.

    Sorry about the delayed response but I only have time to visit this forum about once or twice a week.

  • rem
    rem

    Chap,

    I suggest you educate yourself about the whole Second Law of Thermodynamics argument. Creationists such as yourself have no idea of what they are talking about. If thermodynamics worked the way you suggest nothing would be possible in the world. Here are some things that would be impossible with your interpretation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:

    Drawing a straight line
    Weather
    Reproduction
    Life
    Building a house
    Discussing this on the Internet

    There is nothing in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics that says entropy has to be uniform within the closed system. That is the end result, and that will happen in a few trillion years, but for now there are pockets of reduced entropy within the Universe. One such pocket is our solar system. It will die out in time and become uniform with the background radiation, but we don't have to worry too much. We still have those trillions of years ahead of us - more than enough time for Evolution to do its work.

    Please educate yourself before parroting old, tired arguments.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo

    rem

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    rem said: This is exactly why discussing with you is pointless! You speak without understanding. Clear explanations and examples have been given and you just go back to erroneous conclusions. Evolution is falsifiable

    I have also given "Clear explanations and examples" showing that evolution is not as falsifiable as is often claimed. I will even recap some of them here: Is the concept of evolution falsifiable by evidence from comparisons of embryos? The fact would remain that whether the embryos of invertebrates and invertebrates were similar or different they would all be given an evolutionary explanation. While different sub-hypothesis would have to be used to explain the fact of them being similar or different, the fact remains that evolution could explain both. Thus with regards to the evidence of invertebrate embryos vs. invertebrate embryos being simialr or different with regards to their visual morphology evolution is really not falsifiable. Is the concept of evolution falsifiable by evidence againist transitional forms? While specific theories of evolution may be fairly falsible by the fossil record. The concept of Evolution itself may not be very falsifiable by the fossil record. Even if it were proven that there are no transitional fossils between the major groups such as Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles, and Mammals, the concept of Evolution could still survive. It would be said that Amphibians are transitional between, Fish and Reptiles, and that Reptilies are transitional between Amphibians and Mammals. The lack of transitional fossils between Fish and Amphibians could be explained away based on either poverty of the fossil record or some sort of rapid evolutionary process. Is the concept of evolution falsifiable by evidence against evolutionary mechanisms? Evolutionists have by the phrase "Evolution is a fact, the various mechanisms for it are theory" disconnected and protected the concept of Evolution from being falsified from the various mechanisms being falsified. Thus even if all current proposed mechanisms were falsified the concept of Evolution would still survive. Is the concept of evolution falsifiable by evidence against abiogenesis?
    Evolutionists by claiming that abiogenesis preceeds evolution have disconected and protected the concept of evolution from being falsified from the various abiogenesis theories being falsified. Thus even if all theories of abiogenesis were falified the concept of evolution would survive.

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