Is Relgious belief a trick of the mind?

by sleepy 31 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  onacruse

  Gita: Along the rather more entological lines you suggest, perhaps the following evolution makes some sense?--

  sensation leads to perception

  perception leads to conception

  WE SHOULD STOP HERE...BUT

  conception leads to abstraction

  abstraction leads to expectation

  expectation leads to faith

  WE SHOULD REALLY STOP HERE, BUT

  common faith leads to religion,

  religion redefines conception,

  religious conception leads to a "new" faith

  AND NOW WE'RE DEAD, BECAUSE THE FEED-BACK LOOP CONTINUES ON INDEFINITELY.

  __________

  Life is meant to be endlessly lived, not endlessly analyzed.

  __________

  Craig
• 

  greven

  Nice loop Craig!

  Greven
• 

  Will Power

  Great comments here

  someone left this link in another thread, about why people believe the things that they do.

  Called Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die. good read http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html
• 

  JamesThomas

  Gita wrote:

  "What causes suffering?"

  The drop analogy is too good to let go of, so lets don't. We suffer because we have an extraordinary amount of identity, commitment, belief and attachment invested in our less than genuine drop-selves; and we desire to improve and better our dropness in whatever way we can. There is nothing wrong with improving our drop situation, except that the drop is not our true and natural existence. We are fighting and scratching to improve on an incomplete and false sense of "self". It's an endless circle, a no win situation; and there is much suffering. The way out of this mess is to simple see. It's all about seeing. It's all about awareness. Just see what is false and the Truth is already there...because it always has been. When attention (which is really all we have to give) is placed on the drop, our vision becomes very myopic, and there is no comprehension of the Sea. It's there (here), we are just blind to it. And thus, seemingly (though not really) we have become cut off from our Sustenance. Suffering again. All your other questions are relevant only to a drop. Dwelling there only enforces the sense and story of drophood. We are free to do that....but for now lets not. If there is hunger and yearning for ultimate understanding and living true, then just watch the drop and it's story, it's thinking and questioning, it's worry and past, it's future and confusion, etc.. And somewhere in there, begin to notice what is watching all this. It's very subtle and very much untouched by anything that goes on around it. It doesn't move. It's always been there, and has never changed. What is that? This is like scientific investigation. The willingness to question everything that we have for so long accepted as true and real. No one can tell you what is true. You have to look for yourself. There has to be some clear and undeniable seeing and feeling. It comes down to a deep investigation within ourselves; and a tenacious, almost warrior-attitude and willingness to have our entire rug of reality pulled out from under us...if that's what it takes. The drop does not want to loss itself. There is a level of deep fear attached to such investigation. Though this is all very simple, it can be quite intense at times. You may have noticed that this is different that most every other "way"...which are more about the "me" who I believe myself to be (the drop), earning and moving to a higher plain of existence and understanding. What I am saying here is more like "you will see God, when there is no you left, to see God". Suffering will end, when Identity is shifted from the drop, to the Sea. These are little things that have been picked up along the way. Hopefully there is something here that can be of help, something that may have a ring of truth for you. JamesT
• 

  Sentinel

  In sinc with this topic, is an excellent book that can be downloaded FREE, on the following site:

  http://www.ws5.com/love

  It is profound in content and an easy read. Quite long though. It can also be requested by mail, FREE. I've only finished the first 22 pages, but have a very difficult time setting it aside. I had to share it with my friends here, and hope you will take the time to check it out.
• 

  Introspection

  Both religious beliefs and the spiritual seeker are tricks of the mind. The extraordinary thing about the mind is not that it is capable of great feats of intellectual prowess, but that it can trick itself.

  If the spiritual quest is about our true nature, then what is there to seek? How can one's true nature be somewhere other than here, all the time?

  It would be a mistake to confuse the excitement felt in an intellectual analysis of spiritual ideas with realization. You don't have to know how to talk about it to realize it. In fact, even those that are articulate and capable of explaining it in a lucid manner are aware that what they say is really inadequet. Just the other night in satsang the teacher said as much about himself, and a bit later he said "The Tao Te Ching says 'he that knows does not speak, he that speaks does not know' - I'm not sure what that says about me" and chuckled. If you hang around in spiritual circles long enough it becomes obvious that a lot of people who talk a good game don't really know what they're talking about. It is clear that for those individuals, it is purely an intellectual exercise and they have not come to realize these things in life, which is to say any realization they may have had is quickly distorted by replacing it with a thought.

  You know, recently it occured to me that even among people who meditate, few of them will just sit, which is of course what meditation is. What I mean by that is just sitting quietly with other people or just yourself, without feeling the need to make conversation or do this or that. It's just a matter of being with things as they are, without trying to manipulate or change anything. It seems to me that's the real test, and not when someone is form-ally meditating in a lotus position or whatever. If someone is only capable of being still when formally sitting, it's kind of like going "Look ma! I can meditate!" Forms change, if we're interested in something that does not change then obviously it's not to be found there.
• 

  gitasatsangha

  Umm..

  few of them will just sit, which is of course what meditation is

  Well yes and no, perhaps. I think Zen practiioners call sitting meditaion Zazen. There is also the Mindfulness meditation tradition that calls for mindfulness at all times. Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh suggests this course, being "mindful" at all times. By mindful it means trying to be aware as much as possibly of yourself and your thought processes. Its difficult.

  I walked with him (Thich Nhat Hanh) and some of his monks and nuns for world peace one day. It was to be a meditative walk. I can say it was as good a meditation if not moreso then sitting. Really there are many sorts of meditation, but they boil down to a just a few. For instance in Hindu mediation methods might concentrate on withn, or some external object. The object of some mediations is to clear the mind, and for others it is to relax the mind (two differeng things that end up in different places). JW's sometime mention meditation but they don't really explain how to do it, other then pausing to think about the watchtower paragraph they'd just read.

  I would'nt say it is as simple as sitting on a chair, however, because it is a bit misleading. Typically a person needs some training or at least some pointers to do it properly or they will just sit down, not be able to concentrate (or clear their thougts) and they will think the whole thing is bullshit and go back to watching NBC.
• 

  Introspection

  I'm aware that there are different approaches and techniques, but I was speaking in context of realizing one's true nature, which is what all this is for, isn't it?

  If your intent is to manage your mind in order to attain what you consider a better, more peaceful life for yourself, I agree you would probably benefit from methods by which you can manipulate your mind state.

  In any case, my original point was if people who regularly and formally meditate cannot just sit, then what does that say about the power of their practice? If you believe just sitting is spiritually inferior compared to formal meditation, it kind of calls into question why one can't do it when they've been doing the more advanced "real thing" doesn't it?

  So is 'mindfulness' a function of one's mind then? Doesn't that imply that any understanding of the drop and the ocean is simply a thought pattern in someone's head? I've done walking meditation, but what people seem to miss in this is that being aware doesn't necessitate control, (even in trying to be "more aware", as if you can somehow pull another bushel of awareness from thin air) yet people walk very carefully and try to sit very still. Obviously this is helpful in a practical sense, but awareness is awareness, control is control. It's just empty. Someone may be able to enter subtle states of consciousness but not be free from it, that's just more tricks of the mind. While the mind does naturally settle if the body is still, you're only at peace when mind chatter does not bother you, not when you have to get rid of it. After all, you don't have to believe any of it.
• 

  anglise

  for those in the UK the Horizon programme on BBC2
  

  Thursday 20th March 2003

  21:00 to 21:50

  God on the Brain

  Are we programmed to believe in god?.

  Looks interesting

  Anglise
• 

  ballistic

  Something else on British TV stuck in my mind from the other week. Some guy who had lived through extreme mis-fortune said that as he came to terms with what he had been through, he realised that there was no natural law that existed in the universe called fairness.

  Fairness is simply something man tries to impose upon the world around him.