Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  peacefulpete

  Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.119.1-2 with Connections
  If one wanted to add in any of the middle blessings, something similar the blessing, one may add. How so? If one had a sick person, one asks for mercy for [that person] in the blessing of "Refa'einu" ["Heal us"]. If one needs a livelihood, one may ask for it in the "Blessing of the Years". And in [the blessing] of "Shomeya Tefilla" ["Who hears prayers"], one may ask for any of one's needs, for it includes all the requests. Gloss: And when one adds, one should begin the blessing and, after that, add, but one should not add and then begin the blessing (Tur 567). And according to Rabbeinu Yona, when one adds to the blessing something similar to that blessing, if one is adding it on behalf of all of Israel, one says it in plural language and not singular language, and one should only add at the end of the blessing and not the middle. And if one is asking specifically for one's own needs, for example: there is a sick person in one's home or one needs a livelihood, one can ask even in the middle of the blessing, as long as one does so in singular language and not plural language. And in the blessing of "Shomeya Tefilla" and similarly at the end of prayer, either right before "Yihyu l'ratzon" ["May it be acceptable before You"] or after it, one may ask in either singular language or plural language, whether it is specifically for one own needs or for of the public. יש מי שאומר שכשמוסיף בברכה לצורך יחיד לא יאריך: There is one [authority] who says that when one adds to a blessing for one's individual needs, one should not make it lengthy.
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  KalebOutWest

  Two thousand years ago, Antogonos of Socho taught: “Do not be like a slave who placates his master simply to receive a reward.” What then might prayer be?

  A medieval rabbi, Leon Modena, expressed the truth of prayer as follows: Imagine a man in a boat who is pulling himself to shore. If one did not know better, it could appear that he is pulling the shore to himself. But indeed, it is the one in the boat who is being moved, because the shore is fixed. So it is, he said, with prayer. We think that when we pray we are moving God closer to our will. But true prayer does quite the opposite: It moves us closer to God’s will.

  If we rise from our prayer as better human beings than the ones who sat down, our prayers have been answered.

  Does God answer prayer? Although I too have heard stories of miraculous recoveries and remarkable coincidences in people’s lives, stories of salvation that credit God’s power, I do not believe God supernaturally intervenes in the world in response to prayer. Although my heart yearns for such a God–and at times, I confess, my soul prays in such hopes–my experience in this often pain-wracked world belies the yearning of my heart.

  But to say that God does not remove tumors is not to declare God irrelevant. For we can invoke the strength, guidance, and love of God in our prayers. Calling out to God, we elevate ourselves; seeking God through prayer, we can change our lives.

  --Rabbi David Wolpe, Temple Sinai, Los Angeles, CA
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  Journeyman

  KalebOutWest - thanks for your answers. I was genuinely interested to know.

  Then you added the prayers of Jesus. These have nothing to do with Judaism.

  The reason for additionally asking about Jesus is that, as he was raised a Jew, I was interested in knowing to what extent his teaching really was a "break" from what went before. It's said to be radically different by both Jews and Christians (Jews, often to discredit what he said as heretical; Christians so as to claim their belief as a refinement or improvement on what went before), so I was interested in hearing your thought on just how different his message really would have sounded. From what you say, it was indeed a marked difference.
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  peacefulpete

  If trying to recreate the past, it's important to recognize a tendency to retroject modern perspectives upon the ancient. The elements in the Lord's Prayer (in all its versions) are perfectly consistent with the Kadish and Amidah. The Jewish community for whom Matthew was produced did not wish to make a break from the faith they knew. Kaleb's comments represent a welcomed humanist Reformed Judaism. While his/her overlay on the ancient texts is an admirable interpretation, it would be anachronistic to imagine the OT prayers or the ancient Rabbinic prayers for sun,rain,food, security and good health were psychological tools for self-help. It may well be it has that effect on some, while for others it brings feelings of abandonment and disappointment.
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  KalebOutWest

  Journeyman,

  Let me begin by saying something which I rarely do. I personally believe that God listens to prayer.

  However, Judaism is not a religion. We are a tribe, a community. We thus have a spectrum of beliefs. Asking "what do Jews believe" is like asking "what do Italians believe." You are born Italian as you are born Jewish. Just like there is Italian food, there is Jewish food. It's not specifically a religion. There are religious groups within, but the ideas vary. Get it?

  Think of it this way. Is there JW food? No. It's a religion. There's Jewish food because we're a culture, a civilization.

  Mr Peacefulpete likes to quote things from various Jewish sources as if they are representing my people, but it's a butcher job. Like Americans have a spectrum of beliefs, so do Jews. I can't help much either because I keep using words like "liturgy" and "spectrum" and you folks aren't much experienced with what I am saying. You keep giving me Jesus, someone from an Imperialist system, not from my world. You don't know the vast difference.

  Jesus comes from Rome, not just the Catholic Church. The Jesus from the Gospels is not a Jewish work but an Imperialist one, a representation of the official state religion of a once great empire. That Jesus is no longer the one that walked or sounds like the rabbi who came from Judea. The Jesus from the Gospels is a God.

  That aside: some of Jesus' prayers can still be found among the wording and do indeed seem to come from Judaism. There are schools of thought that resemble Hillel, for example.

  The Golden Rule, for instance, seems to be a quote from Hillel: "What you do not wish to do be done to you, do not to do others." Jesus merely said it in the positive (or his disciples reworked and ascribed it to Jesus).

  The "Our Father" of Matther 6 comes from bits and pieces of the Jewish liturgy. Hallowed be thy name from the Kaddish prayer where Jews pray "qadosh, qadosh, qadosh" or "holy, holy, holy" in reference to God’s name, meaning "May his great name grow exalted and glorified," as some have rewritten the prayer over the centuries.

  I can go on, but there is a perfectly good resource out there. The Jewish Annotated New Testament, Second Edition.

  Now...I do not, like Peacefulpete says, imagine that the Old Testament prayers were some "psychological tools for self help." They meant what they said, in the genre that they were composed, but words mean what they mean. People in the past believed that they talked to deities, not merely worshiped them.

  He got that very wrong indeed.

  Peacefulpete doesn't understand what I mean or comprehend where I come from. He thinks he does. And that is the problem--believing you know something and teaching others about the subject when you don't.

  Offering to help others with abilities you do not possess is like offering to feed the hungry from empty pots.

  I really hate that the Watchtower taught so many people to debate in a cut-and-paste way from blurbs found from "sources." It’s horrible. The correct way is to build an argument and to demonstrate the way it works, not by quotes from others, but merely a demonstration that your logic is sound within itself.
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  peacefulpete

  Matther 6 comes from bits and pieces of the Jewish liturgy.

  Yes, that is what I said.

  ....elements in the Lord's Prayer (in all its versions) are perfectly consistent with the Kadish and Amidah.

  I do not, like Peacefulpete says, imagine that the Old Testament prayers were some "psychological tools for self help." They meant what they said, in the genre that they were composed, but words mean what they mean. People in the past believed that they talked to deities, not merely worshiped them....He got that very wrong indeed.

  I did not say you believed what I said was anachronistic. I said it would be anachronistic to impose a modern Reformed understanding of the value of prayer upon ancient texts. So, we agree. The discussion is about what ancient Jews felt about prayer. As you said they believed they were talking to the deities, and yes that included petitions for sun,rain,food, and security.

  Peacefulpete doesn't understand what I mean or comprehend where I come from. He thinks he does.

  No, Peacefulpete has no interest in where you come from, he has interest in the evolving nature of ancient religion. At times you have offered valuable input.

  Peacefulpete, the Butcher of JWD
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  peacefulpete

  I apologize for my tone. I do not however understand your condescension.

  Regarding the sole quotation from Antogonos of Socho, every other form I have found words the quote similar to this:

  "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of reward; rather, be like servants who do not serve their master for the sake of reward, and let the awe of Heaven be upon you" (Artscroll translation).

  or

  "Be not like slaves who serve their master for their daily rations; be like those who serve their master without regard to emoluments, and let the fear of God be with you."

  How does this suggest he did not believe in prayers of invocation?
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  KalebOutWest

  If you belonged to a group that was important to you that had a long history, let's say the Greeks, and I came around and quoted this and that from historians here and there as best I could but sort of made your culture and family history a bit of a mess in the process, how would that make you feel?

  I, as a Jew, don't understand that type of condescension either when non-Jews do that to us, but they do it all the time with our history, quoting from our books and our sacred texts, getting things wrong all the time--then telling us that our viewpoints about our own culture and religion are incorrect.

  Who is condescending who?

  So just keep doing what you're doing if you think I, the Jew, am treating you, the non-Jew, unfairly about my own history and culture and religion in this case.

  So sorry. We Jews don't know what we're talking about when it comes to ourselves. You should enlighten us more often.
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  peacefulpete

  It seems Antigonus is notable for a couple things, his Greek name betrays the extent of early Greek influence right around the time of Alexander and his choice to use "heaven' rather than "God" is regarded as a theology of transcendence. (The second translation above is a paraphrase, I noted the difference in the two translations and found a discussion that understood the word choice significant.)

  The expression "Heaven" for "God" is the oldest evidence in postexilic Judaism of the development of the idea of a transcendental Deity.

  The Jewish Spiritual Heroes, Volume I; The Creators of the Mishna, Antigonos of Socho 3 with ConnectionsANTIGONUS OF SOKO - JewishEncyclopedia.com
  
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  peacefulpete

  Why do you feel I am anything but fascinated with the Jewish culture and history? How else am I to learn other than reading and discussing it? This is a discussion forum after all. If you see me making a factual error, then correct it using sources I can read and learn from. I do believe our coming from different perspectives is an opportunity for both of us. My own research for the past 25 years is likely to have included things you may not have encountered. I'm sorry if that sounds condescending because that is not where it is coming from.

  I'll remind you of your wise comments about JWs not thinking for themselves or developing deeper perception. If I just take your word at things, how am I growing?

  A last thought. If I disagree with you on a matter of history I am not disagreeing with all Jews. You have repeatedly emphasized there never was, nor is there, a consensus on many matters of interpretation and practice.