Talking with a young elder (page 3)

Oubliette

bibleexaminer: Figure out why on your own.

No need to be an asshole about it. I asked you for clarification about the point that YOU were trying to make because YOU were not clear.

Apparently that's too much trouble for you to do.

Whatever.

Oubliette

floodguy: Christianity should actually be called paulinity.

Exactly. Paul invented Christianity, not some guy named Jesus.

People been using it to mess with and control other people ever since.

Let's review: It's a cult!

Yes there are contradictions between what Paul supposedly wrote and what Jesus supposedly said. This is not the point the original poster was trying to make to this elder. Bottom line is this Paul would have been dfd by the GB today.

konceptual99

@bibleexaminer

I get your reasoning and line of thinking but can you point me to where it says that James sent the men from Judea? According to the NWT, Acts 15:1 says:

Now some men came down from Ju·deʹa and began to teach the brothers: “Unless you get circumcised according to the custom of Moses,+ you cannot be saved.”

The Bearing Witness book commented on this:

Whether these “certain men” had been Pharisees before converting to Christianity is not stated. At the very least, they appear to have been influenced by that Jewish sect’s legalistic thinking. Also, they may have wrongly claimed to speak for the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. (Acts 15:23, 24)

The Acts 15:23,24 scripture in the NWT says:

“The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch,+ Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said,+ trying to subvert you,* although we did not give them any instructions

So, whilst I do think there is a spin on this, it's not clear that James sent an instruction from what I can see. It's an interesting line of reasoning I would like to have in my back pocket but I can't see anything that clearly says James sent them therefore there was a clear dispute between James and Paul. What else should I be looking at?

EDIT - just to point out that I am using the obvious references that one would have to use if talking to a dub. They have to see it in black and white in the NWT and publications...

Floodguy

Yeah, sorry I had to throw the Paul thing in there. Since catching on to the problem with Paul, the WTS and their constant "the inspired apostle Paul said..." Really gets to me. His baseless, unconfirmed claims as to who he claimed to be are the blueprint for WTS claims.

Diogenesister

Lieu6 hours ago

Meh, Paul was a bit whiny. "Woe is me in these chains for Christ!" No one wants to hear that all the time. Others were being fed to lions and whatnot. "Me, me, me, me." Besides, he genuinely belonged in chains; after all, he was a murderer.

Gotta remember he was a spoiled rich kid. Who he studied with wasn't cheap & is still revered in the Jewish community today. Also, he was a single Jewish male with Roman citizenship.

/\ /\ /\ oh yeah

EdenOne

Paul took a jewish sect of deluded followers of a dead rabbi and, with considerable mixing of greek philosophy, transformed it into "christianity".

Read James D. Tabor's "Paul and Jesus - How the apostle transformed christianity", and it'll become crystal clear.

Eden

biblexaminer

re; Oubliette: The comment about 'figuring things out on your own' was not a quip directed at you. It was a general statement giving credit to the reader for the collective ability to discern the relativity of said point with respect of the foregone conclusions reached with the line of reasoning introduced.

If I had intended to direct it at you personally, I would have quoted your text and pointed the finger plainly. Do you suffer from low self esteem? I would not ask such a question, but you used expletives.

biblexaminer

re; konceptual99

Good observation. You are an aspiring bible student. You will go far. Thank you for your question.

In answer, I say first, utilize the references in the NWT, or other bibles. You will find that Paul, in writing to the Galatians (Gal 2) gave a great run down of what happened in Antioch and afterwards in Jerusalem.

Paul allowed the readers to see, not just what happened in further detail, but how he felt about it all.Paul pointed fingers.

Gal 2:12 "For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they (certain men from James) came, he (Peter) began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party (certain men from James) of the circumcision."

The "party of the circumcision" was sent there by James, acting chief of the older men in Jerusalem who were starting up their governing body machine.

Acts 15 in the NWT seems to imply that Paul's going to Jerusalem was something worked out by these "certain men". Here, to the Galatians, Paul makes clear what was really the case. Gal. 2:2 "And it was because of a revelation (by Jesus) that I went up; .... but I did so in private to those who were of reputation (those older men who were attempting to centralize authority in a governing body) ... in "private" for fear that he might be wasting his time. Paul was hoping to turn them to Christ instead of blowing them out the door.

Read Acts 15 side by side with Galatians 2. Meditate on what you read.

Paul's unwillingness to meet with these "older men" of the newfangled governing older men on later occasions is understood. Paul had disdain for these men who were trying to gain disciples unto themselves, really, in competition with the Holy Spirit ...who was gaining disciples for Christ.

All quotes from the NAS Bible

punkofnice

even though they are 'good dubs' so-to-speak, they practice their religion 'their own way'. But one has to remember that they are still borg, thru & thru. I bet there's a thousand like them.

I know plenty. They seem to have the idea that the WBT$ isn't perfect but 'it's the nearest thing to the truth.'

How they make that out I'll never know..........don't care really.

A vast amount of JWs pick'n'mix how they want to follow the WBT$.

Talking with a young elder

Oubliette

Oubliette

Crazyguy

konceptual99

Floodguy

Diogenesister

Lieu6 hours ago

EdenOne

biblexaminer

If I had intended to direct it at you personally, I would have quoted your text and pointed the finger plainly. Do you suffer from low self esteem? I would not ask such a question, but you used expletives.

biblexaminer

re; konceptual99

Good observation. You are an aspiring bible student. You will go far. Thank you for your question.

In answer, I say first, utilize the references in the NWT, or other bibles. You will find that Paul, in writing to the Galatians (Gal 2) gave a great run down of what happened in Antioch and afterwards in Jerusalem.

Paul allowed the readers to see, not just what happened in further detail, but how he felt about it all.Paul pointed fingers.

Gal 2:12 "For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they (certain men from James) came, he (Peter) began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party (certain men from James) of the circumcision."

The "party of the circumcision" was sent there by James, acting chief of the older men in Jerusalem who were starting up their governing body machine.

Read Acts 15 side by side with Galatians 2. Meditate on what you read.

Paul's unwillingness to meet with these "older men" of the newfangled governing older men on later occasions is understood. Paul had disdain for these men who were trying to gain disciples unto themselves, really, in competition with the Holy Spirit ...who was gaining disciples for Christ.

All quotes from the NAS Bible

punkofnice

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