Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

by fulltimestudent 112 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Justaguy

  The US didn't leave victorious. They left with the world laughing at their stupidity and incompetence.

  Who said anything about victory? I gave a nuanced perspective that ultimately summarized with : “ If by defeat you mean the ruskies and americans failed to change the hearts and minds of the mohammedans, absolutely correct.” So…. ?

  I then said:

  But defeat on the battle field? Not even close.

  I still dont see the word victory nor the concept expressed. And yes the world is cheering as my many comments on this topic have noted.

  No one has ever "held" Afganistan and no one ever will.
  It's all about the geography.

  false. The Russians held it for 10 years, although it was hotly contested for the duration and the Americans held it for 20 years, for much of which there was no resistance whatsoever, our puppets rans the government and enforced the laws. We even opened schools for girls (to the shock and horror of the cabe dwellers) By definition that is “holding it”.

  (NB you pushed the Japs back by nuking them. Now that is nothing to "crow" about).

  In fact it is. Fat man and Little Boy were technological marvels that laid the foundation for the world of today. It could well be argued that Nukes are the only reason there have been no more world wars. But in point of fact that is not exclusively how we pushed them back. The battle of midway, the pivotal point in the war of the pacific, was all conventional arms and good old fashion boots to asses by some very heroic men.

  I understand the desire to be reductionist but nuclear arms were the coffin nail not the hammer.
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  Here's a question: now that the US has ran away from Afghanistan, do you think the Chinese will fear US troops as they eye Taiwan?
• 

  Rivergang

  During its 10 years in Afghanistan, the Soviet Union controlled the major urban centres of the country, and was usually able to use the highways that connect these together, although even that could not always be guaranteed. (Soviet motor traffic did risk being ambushed when it travelled those roads).

  As for the remainder of Afghanistan - which makes up the large majority of its surface area - the best that can be said is that this was "contested". All too often, Soviet soldiers "controlled" the ground immediately below their army boots, but very little else.

  Diverging a little now, but the matter of WWII has been raised by other, so a few comments about that are appropriate. The fact is, during the early stages of the war against Japan, none of the Western allies fought particularly well. (Jungle warfare was something that had previously been hardly thought of, and only the Japanese were in any way prepared for it). The debacle at the British "fortress" of Singapore is well known, and the ease with which the Japanese over ran all European territories in South East Asia quickly led to them gaining the reputation of being supermen.

  Included in that list of Allied forces who initially performed badly against the Japanese are those of the United States. Despite being full of bravado when first deployed to New Guinea, US army units broke and ran during their first encounter with the Japanese. (For a full description of these events, Lex Macaulay's To the Bitter End is an informative read). According to the memoirs of Lieutenant General George Kenny (USAAF), when the Commander of Allied Land Forces in the SW Pacific Command, General Thomas Blamey, was asked what reinforcements he wanted to finish clearing the Japanese from the north Papuan Coast area, he said bluntly "Australians, because I know they will fight".

  Also, Japan's first defeat on land occurred in the Milne Bay area of what is now Papua New Guinea. That defeat was inflicted on them by Australian forces - some of whom (the 61st Battalion of the Australian militia) were regarded as decidedly second rate troops. (Another very informative read is Peter Brune's A Bastard of a Place - Australian Operations in Papua, in which the Battle of Milne Bay is described in detail).

  Concurrent with that battle was an epic campaign fought along the Kokoda Track in New Guinea. Anybody that has read the history of that campaign, in which the Japanese were halted within just one day's march of Port Moresby, could hardly use the word "soft" to describe the Australian and Papuan personnel who took part in it. Even today, it is quite a challenge just to trek through the Owen Stanley Ranges from Ower's Corner in the south to Kokoda village to the north. One can only imagine the difficulties of carrying out military operations at the same time.

  To be fair on everybody, Allied forces soon adapted to jungle warfare, and then proved themselves more than adequate for the task. (This includes the British 14th Army that cleared the Japanese out of Burma, and particularly the special forces, the "Chindits" under Major General Orde Wingate).
  
• 

  Simon

  The more that comes out about the withdrawal, the more shambolic it sounds.

  Apparently no one told the commander of the main Bagram airbase that they were leaving - they just turned the power off and left, leaving it all to looters.

  https://apnews.com/article/bagram-afghanistan-airfield-us-troops-f3614828364f567593251aaaa167e623

  They also didn't notify allies such as the British so they could properly secure consulates and embassies and arrange to extract citizens (which non-US countries are still doing).

  Utterly amateurish, but then what do you expect when the country is run by a senile fool and a laughing hyena?

  Apparently Hillary Clinton has also been involved behind the scenes ... because she does such a great job in times of crisis. Sorry, I meant creating a foreign crisis ...

  Is this really what America has become? Is this the state of things? Pitiful.
• 

  Rivergang

  And back in the day, we all thought that their evacuation of Saigon was a complete b@ll$-Up!
• 

  frozen2018

  I have to wonder, did Joe put his crackhead kid in charge of this whole affair? That would explain a lot!

  
  
• 

  Simon

  Russia and China are doing remarkably well under the Biden administration, you have to wonder exactly what they have on him. I'm guessing, going of the reprobate piece of shit excuse for a son he produced, that they have plenty. Biden is the epitome of a corrupt, sleazy, shameless lying politician filling his pockets and selling everyone out for his own gain at every opportunity. I bet he even steals the pens.
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  They also didn't notify allies such as the British so they could properly secure consulates and embassies and arrange to extract citizens (which non-US countries are still doing). - yep, it was completely unilateral.

  Biden didn't discuss anything with anybody. He just abruptly withdrew American troops.

  What a nice guy, huh
  
  
• 

  frozen2018

  Biden didn't discuss anything with anybody. He just abruptly withdrew American troops.

  That is not true. Picking up where Trump left off (Trump was all for getting out of Afghanistan), Biden said the May 1st deadline Trump set was not feasible so he made September 11th the new deadline (I guess for some horrid, symbolic, theatrical reason). As the Taliban started moving, Biden changed the date to August 31 for the safety of American troops. Biden's intentions were not secret.

  By the way, I have thought for a while that the US needed to leave Afghanistan as it didn't seem like we were making much real progress in the region. The US should have left 19 years ago. All the US did was spend a bunch of money (enriching the corrupt in the process) for absolutely nothing.
  
  
• 

  Simon

  Trump was all for getting out of Afghanistan

  Again, it's not the leaving, it's the manner of the leaving and lack of planning and organization.

  Give it up in your lame attempts to suggest it was Trump's fault because this is all on Biden.

  And if you are one of the few who voted for him (no way was it ever 85m) or took advantage of the fraud to support him being declared the winner, then this is all on YOU.

  All the suffering. All the beaten women. All the raped children. All the tortured murdered men. YOU caused it, YOU helped make it happen, because elections have consequences and stolen elections to install corrupt and senile incompetent assholes have the biggest consequences of all.