Scriptures That Don’t Fit WT Theology

by Sea Breeze 76 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    people just want and got to have Jesus as their mediator just as they want to and got to go to heaven. It is all about their wants.

    @Rattigan

    No, it is not. It is a matter of obedience and survival.

    Jesus is Mediator of the New Covenant... the one that is "for forgiveness of sins" described in Mt. 26: 27-28


    When we accept Jesus and his offer of forgiveness in the NC, we have a righteous standing before God. It is called Justification. The WT teaches that their members cannot be Justified. This is the problem and why it is such a BIG DEAL.


    Romans 5: 9 - having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.


    This scripture plainly says that you must be justified to escape wrath. JW's are not Justified. Their church prevents them from being Justified. So, according to the above scripture in Romans 5: 9, How do you personally plan to escape the wrath of God without being Justified by the blood of the covenant?


  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF
    Rattigan350an hour ago

    "Mediator - only for the 144,000?"

    Why does this keep coming up?

    Because it's a new concept that is nonsensical.

    New? Like only since the JWs proposed it as a dogma.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    Blotty- I have no interest in reading your posts on your research. I am only listing scriptures that do not fit WT theology. Don't you understand that?

    You said that the Holy Ghost is never called "he" and I replied that was nonsense and gave you dozens of examples. Your reply? Don't read it in english. What complete and utter nonsense you are posting.

    That said, more scriptures that might not fit WT theology include

    Acts 5;3-4

    New International Version
    Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

    This passage from Acts says that the Holy Ghost is God

    2 Corinthians 3;17-18

    New International Version
    Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

    Again, this passage says that the Holy Ghost is God

    ttwsyf




  • LV101
    LV101

    Thanks, Sea Breeze -- news to me/very informative.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Acts 5:3-4 in saying that when one is lying to the Holy Spirit that one is also lying to God, it might not be conveying that the Holy Spirit is God, but instead that the Holy Spirit is a representative/intermediary of God. Hypothetically speaking, if God and angels exist, then if one lies to an angel (when the angel is acting as a messenger/representative of God) than lying to the angel might also amount to lying to God, since the presence of the angel would be acting as a means to communicate the person's words to God.

    2 Corinthians 3:17-18 might not be saying that the Holy Spirit is God.the phrase of "Lord is the Spirit" might instead be saying that YWH/Jehovah is a spirit being, the great spirit. The phrase of "Spirit of the Lord" might be saying that the holy spirit (or Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost) belongs to God and comes from God, instead of saying it belongs to God. I believe such is the view of the WT and that view is the most reasonable interpretation to me of the what the scripture passage is saying in regards to the identity of the Spirit in the passage. [See the verses in the 1984 NWT, as well as John 4:24 and Isaiah 61:1 in the 1984 NWT.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction: In my prior post where I said "instead of saying it belongs to God" I should have said "instead of saying it is God".

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    DJW - I disagree. Acts in particular is most definitely a direct reference of the Holy Ghost being directly God or at least equal to God. I’ll add more scripture references later on.

    ttwsfy

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    TTWSYF I know you disagree and I understand why. When I read Acts 5:3-4 I see as a possible interpretation of it that which you state. I even think that your interpretation of it might have a higher probability of being the writer's intended interpretation. But, I decided to present an alternative view. Note that I did say the interpretation (the alternative view) which I presented in my earlier post is the correct one (though it is the one which WT literature taught me while I was a JW), for I used the word "might" as a qualifier expressing my uncertainty.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Earlier today I was flipping through some of the pages of the Byington Bible to see if there were any outstandingly insightful wordings in it which would cause me to choose to keep that Bible instead of selling it. When I read John 16:28 in the Bible I found such wording and I was stunned, for such wording seem to me to support the idea of the gospel of John (that is, the gospel which is attributed to John) claiming Jesus literally "came out of the Father" and that thus Jesus is God in the sense of being a part of God the Father. Such a view gives us valuable context to interpreting John 1:1, John 20:28, and a number of other verses in the gospel which is attributed to John.

    John 16:28 according to the Byington Bible (The Bible in Living English) seems to be saying that Jesus claimed he literally "came out of" God, and thus conveying that Jesus is a part of Yahweh God. Furthermore, verses 29- 30 say that Jesus' apostles said that Jesus was speaking then plainly instead of speaking figuratively, thus supporting such a literal interpretation of literally having come of the Father's very being. Around the 1st century (and of some Christians for at least a century or two later) there was the view that Jesus was an effluence from YHWH God and also the view that Jesus was begotten of the Father in the sense of literally coming out of the Father's being. Such views naturally lead to the idea of Jesus thus also being YHWH God and might be the view that Paul had in mind when wrote in Romans 10:9-13 about confessing Jesus as Kyrios/Lord [possibly meaning YHWH] and calling on name of Jesus in the sense of calling on "the name of Lord" [possibly meaning YHWH].

    In John 16:28 the Byington Bible says Jesus said "I came out of the Father" and "have come into the world" and that Jesus was "leaving the world" and "going to the Father's presence. That translation gives much more of parallelism and symmetry of ideas that do most other Bible translations which don't use the phrasing of "came out of" or "came forth from" (and instead say "came from" which is less specific in meaning). The NKJV says "came forth from" and a dictionary I have says the archaic expression of "forth from" means "out of".

    Even John 16:28 in the interlinear reading of the WT's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear says "I came out of the Father" (though despite such the 1984 NWT says "came out from" instead of "came out of".

    John 16:28 in the 1901 ASV and the 1898 ARV (and the 1885 RV) say "I came out from the Father ...".

    See also John 13:3 in the above mentioned Bible translations regarding the phrase "came out from".

    However, note the following. In John 16:28 the Greek text in the Emphatic Diaglott does not have exactly the same wording as the Greek text complied by Westcott and Hort (the Greek text in the Kingdom Interlinear). The interlinear English translation in the Diaglott at John 16:28 says "out from" instead of "out of" and the Greek word there translated "out from" is different than the Greek word in the Kingdom Interlinear which has the interlinear translation of "out of". As a result, the translation differences in the various Bibles pertaining to the above could be due to those Bibles using different Greek texts.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: I Corinthians 1:2

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