(re. zboubiz's post..)
Seriously... go back far enough, virtually everything has "pagan" origins.
The Truth about the bible
by TTWSYF 49 Replies latest watchtower bible
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TTWSYF
And worth mentioning that truth is where you find it. There is some truth in some paganism. Paganism, like all religions was the attempt of people to get closer to true spirituality. Looking and trying to figure out what works and doesn't work fumbling through the unknown and unseen.
imho anyway
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shepherdless
Also the RCC it's the only one that uses the Septuaginta.
Jews and Protestants use the canon from the Masoretic Text.Actually, I think the only ones who use the Septuagint are the Greek Orthodox. For most of its history, the Catholics have used the Latin Vulgate, as its “Old Testament” which was produced and translated into Latin using 5 or 6 versions available at the time, including the Septuagint. (Most of the other versions are partially or completely lost.)
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Sea Breeze
The "Catholic Church" didn't exist until some time after Constantine converted in 312 AD, However....
Around 250 A.D., Origen likely produced a complete list of all 27 New Testament books–more than a hundred years before Athanasius. In his typical allegorical fashion, Origen used the story of Joshua to describe the New Testament canon:
But when our Lord Jesus Christ comes, whose arrival that prior son of Nun designated, he sends priests, his apostles, bearing “trumpets hammered thin,” the magnificent and heavenly instruction of proclamation. Matthew first sounded the priestly trumpet in his Gospel; Mark also; Luke and John each played their own priestly trumpets. Even Peter cries out with trumpets in two of his epistles; also James and Jude. In addition, John also sounds the trumpet through his epistles [and Revelation], and Luke, as he describes the Acts of the Apostles. And now that last one comes, the one who said, “I think God displays us apostles last,” and in fourteen of his epistles, thundering with trumpets, he casts down the walls of Jericho and all the devices of idolatry and dogmas of philosophers, all the way to the foundations (Hom. Jos. 7.1).
As one can see from the list above, all 27 books of the New Testament are accounted for (Origen clearly counts Hebrews as part of Paul’s letters). The only ambiguity is a text-critical issue with Revelation, but we have good evidence from other sources that Origen accepted Revelation as Scripture (Eusebius, Hist. eccl. 6.25.10).
My thoughts: The early church leaders (disciples of the apostles) wrote a lot of letters to each other, mostly to deal with heresies. In those letters, as a whole, a person can reconstruct about 2/3 of the traditional New Testament canon either quoted or paraphrased. Thus, it is easy to see which writings were used as authoritative (as well as what was, and what was not "sound doctrine")..
The appearance of "a list" by Athanasius in 380 AD or so, has little to do with which letters/books were accepted as authoritative by the first congregation elders centuries earlier. -
TTWSYF
The "Catholic Church" didn't exist until some time after Constantine converted in 312 AD
History doesn't agree with this statement. You can look back in time and see where the church was in the first century, where it was in the 2nd century and so on and walk it all the way up to the present.
The catholic church was started by Jesus and the apostles and was already feeding and clothing the poor and spreading the teachings and all of the commands of Christ many years [centuries] before the bible. The Bible is a by product of the Church that had already existed. Not the other way around.
TTWSYF
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Sea Breeze
Well there is of course a "Catholic" Church ...meaning widespread body of believers. In that sense, yes the apostles started this movement as eyewitnesses of the resurrection.
But what we think of as the Catholic Church today is really the Roman Catholic Church , which places Jesus mother as a co-mediator with Christ, promotes papal authority, and officially teaches that there is no salvation outside of their organization.Catholic Catechism #969 “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
Clearly the Catholic Church has lifted titles for the Holy Spirit and applied them to Mary. The title Mediatrix is the feminized version of Jesus‟ title as Mediator. The RCC makes Mary a co-mediator.
Catholic Catechism # 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the 8 bishops and of the whole company of the faithful. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."
The Pope sees himself as the visible head of God’s Kingdom on earth as opposed to the invisible authority of Jesus Christ. However, early Christians walked by faith, not by sight. (2 Cor. 5:7). Additionally, one of the Pope’s titles is the Vicar of Christ. The word vicar comes from the Latin word vicarius meaning substitution. The on-line version of the Pocket Catholic Dictionary defines the Vicar of Christ as: “The Pope, visible head of the Church on earth, acting for and in the place of Christ”.
However, this is in serious conflict with scripture. Can there be two heads on one body? … Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. - Ephesians 5:23 1994
Catholic Catechism Paragraph # 82 - As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.
Here the Catholic Church demands their own traditions be revered as if they are the word of God. The Watchtower claims the same thing:
Watchtower December 15, 2008, pg 28 – “Our coming to know „the truth‟ - the entire body of Christian teachings that has become part of the Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation”.
Simply put, the Catholic Church, the Watchtower Corporation, and others have made the same mistake that many others have made; they’ve added their traditions, good works, and another mediator to “Jesus the author and finisher of our faith”. (Heb. 12:2) Because of this, they have nullified God’s offer of salvation for some. (Mark 7:13)
There is only one way into God’s favor:
I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold , but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber…Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - Jn.10: 1-7
The NT is a contract between two individuals only... the believer and Christ. There is as BIG difference between the "Catholic" Church (all believers with a one to one relationship with Jesus) and the Roman Catholic Church with their hierarchy and doctrinal heresies.
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Ex-JWs Brazil
Apostolic churches (both Roman and Orthodox) are the authentic Christianity.
Protestantism is just like a "made in China" Christianity.
St. Mary is the Mediatrix in a secondary way. She's the channel which God came to this world (Mother of God) and all graces from God are distributed through (not from) her.
St. Mary being the Mediatrix of all Graces was accepted even by Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism.
Using the JW language, St. Mary's role is the same as the governing body (regarding the distribution of Grace).
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TTWSYF
Mary's role is also in the tradition of a Jewish queen mother. The queen was the king's mother, not the king's spouse. Jewish kings would take council from their mothers and subjects would from time to time appeal to the queen mother for favor from the king. Mary is the most blessed woman according to the bible.
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TTWSYF
God the Trinity rose Jesus from the dead according to the bible
In Acts 2:24, Peter says that “God raised [Jesus] from the dead” (see also Romans 8:11 and 2 Corinthians 4:14). Romans 1:4 (and possibly 1 Peter 3:18) seems to say that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18).
“God has raised . . . Jesus to life” (Acts 2:32). The Father is God, and the Father raised His Son to life on the third day after the crucifixion (Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 13:4). The Spirit is also God, and the Spirit had a part in raising Jesus from the dead. The Son is also God, and the Son, too, was responsible for His own resurrection.
How can a dead man resurrect himself? Jesus was more than a man who died; He was the eternal Son of God incarnate. Wicked men could kill His body, but they could not change His eternal nature or diminish His divine power. In John 10:17–18 Jesus says something that no mere mortal could ever say: “I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.” No one else in the history of the world has ever had the authority both to lay down his life and raise it up again.
Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). He did not say, “My Father is the resurrection.” He claimed to be the resurrection Himself; life resides with Jesus, and He has authority over life and death (Revelation 1:18). Jesus is God. He could say He would raise up His body on the third day because He, being God, has power over death.
Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? God did, and by that we mean all three Persons of the Trinity were involved. All three Persons of the Trinity participated in creation (1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1–2). All three are involved in salvation (John 3:6, 16). And all three are responsible for the resurrection of Christ Jesus.So I guess the bible confirms the belief that God is a trinity. Go figure that one out.
TTWSYF
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apostatethunder
The Catholic Church had a message. Thanks to judaism and protestantism this message is now lost forever.