Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

by proplog2 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  proplog2

  Bebu:

  Being steeped in the JW doctrine I too had difficulty explaining the blood-guilt of the USA. Here is how I handle this problem.

  Middle eastern writing uses a lot of hyperbole. For example Sadaam's "Mother of all battles statement". This statement doesn't mean that the battle Sadaam was talking about was the first battle ever. It meant that it would be so great that it would be the "definitive" battle.

  Compare Rev. 17:6 with Rev. 18:24 and then with Jeremiah 51:49

  Rev. 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus"

  Rev. 18:24 "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth."

  Jeremiah 51:49 "Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall but also at Babylon the slain ones of all the earth have fallen"

  This is clearly hyperbole meant to make a strong case against the original Babylon and later Babylon The Great.

  The USA has made deals with ruling elites in various countries that caused real harm to the ordinary people. Batista, Somosa, Marcos, Shah of Iran, House of Saud etc.

  As Americans we perceive ourselves as being extremely generous because we provide foreign aid to so many countries. Unfortunately that aid has gone to ruling elites, usually minority factions, who use that money to subjugate the masses of people. Wealth from rubber, oil, bananas, sugar etc. has not been used to improve the lot of ordinary people. The ruling elites who are in "bed" with the US squander their money on their own lavish life style and supporting special police forces to keep their populations from revolting.

  The neutral stand of Christians sometimes is a protection. More often Christians are convenient targets to both sides because they refuse to take sides.
• 

  proplog2

  Francios:

  I admire your resolute stand. You most certainly won't be fooled again. I think you ought to look into the prophetic view Bush and his neoconservatives believe in. Bush is a religious nut. He thinks its his destiny to destroy Israel's enemies. He is careful not to condemn Islam but they fit the "born agains" scheme of the anti-christ.

  Prophecy affects us even if its bogus. If enough people believe it they may fullfil it.
• 

  proplog2

  Scully:

  I was sincerely expecting something to happen by December 20. It was my long shot guess about the convergence of events at that time. So, I am happy to announce I am a certifiable "false prophet". But I still consider myself a "seer". Not in any mystical or inspired sense. There are feelers, doers, thinkers and SEErs. I would rather be a Looker.

  I have enjoyed my sabbatical for the last 3 months. I have been lured out of seclusion by some of the discussions of late.
• 

  rocketman

  What all this indicates to me is that, once again (because I just said this a couple days ago on another thread) the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.
• 

  bebu

  proplog2,

  Interesting thoughts. I am not going to even try to defend the US as some sort of holy country with a mandate from heaven. I think the US, along with every country, has made many bad decisions which cannot be whitewashed. Real harm to the ordinary peoples is a serious consideration.

  That said, I think that there is still a unique description about BTG that just hasn't been fulfilled by the US. If you talk blood-guilt in general--well, which country in history ISN'T? What about the millions killed under Ghenghis Khan or Stalin? To be honest, the WT is the only place which I've EVER heard that has made this whole passage turn on just "blood-guilt", and I have to admit I just don't have much stock in their angle here to begin with. What I mean is, the WT is so famous for leaving out so much relevent information when they pontificate about "who is what"--They talk about the 144,000, and ignore COMPLETELY the description given by the Bible (whether you want to interpret that passage literally or symbolically, they miss the mark either way); they talk much about "bloodguilt", but they have completely ignored a very precise description of this bloodguilt. So, if you want to assume that there is a BTG, it can't (I think) at this point be the US.

  I personally think it will be another political power in the future, which supercedes the US in economic strength, and uses this power especially to crush Christians.

  And rocketman is right. It is always possible to take parts of the Bible and make them say whatever you want. The easiest parts to do this with are apocalyptic literature, like Daniel and Revelation.

  Why didn't God just make it easier for us?? Even Jesus seemed to have the same style.

  MT 13:10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

  MT 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. [12] Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. [13] This is why I speak to them in parables:

  It just looks like if we really want to know God, we'll have to not expect Him to drop everything in our lap; we'll have to make our own effort to move toward Him. We need to be responsible for whatever we DO know.

  And if prophecy "don't fit", don't force it to. Take a break! This is what I think.

  (I also think you poor ex-dubs, especially, need a good, long rest from thinking about Armageddon, Babylon the Great, and the scarlet beast! I know I would still be emotionally exhausted if I had to recover from all of that constant panic and frenzy... )

  My very humble 2 yen. And ye'll get no more yen from me!

  Have a great day!

  bebu
• 

  Loris

  Proplog2

  So what, you are a false prophet. I enjoy playing "what-if" myself. I see your point of the US being a good candidate for BTG. The fact that Daniel tells of the disappearance of the King of the South adds weight to it.

  If the cryptic prophecies were not in the Bible then we would not be tempted to put the pieces of the puzzle together. At least Proplog2 is not claiming divine inspiration or special channel status. Wild speculation can be fun. in the proper persrective.

  Loris
• 

  Gamaliel

  proplog2,

  There is a much more rewarding and "spiritual" way to study prophecy than the method you use.

  1. Try to understand exactly what the original author would have thought the symbols and words meant. Take all your hints you can from the author's setting, his experiences and his own belief about his sources.
  2. Try to understand exactly what the first audience would have understood it to mean. (Christians very familiar with the "Old Testament" in the "generation that saw" Jerusalem fall.)
  3. Never read future and extended meanings into the text unless the original setting works as a meaningful "analogy" for that extended meaning. If you wish to allow for these extended meanings, make sure they don't exclude other similar uses of the same analogy througout history, in the past, present or future.

  Prophets and seers have set themselves up as ridiculous "laughing stocks" when they try to say that a certain symbol means this and only this. The wording may purposely imply further and future meanings, but Revelation, remember, was intended as a revealing (through a language meaningful to the audience but cryptic to outsiders). As prophecy it was to help Christians through their time of the end, which was short, already upon them, in fact. Remember: "Come quickly, Lord Jesus."

  Jesus taught in the time of the end for his Jewish listeners and Paul said it was the "last days" and it was in the last days that Christians suffered under Nero and other caesars and emperors. Christians are in the last days in the year 100, 200, 300, 1000 ...1800, 1900, 2000, etc. If 2 Tim 3:16 is correct then Revelation is scripture only to the extent that it still helps Christians sort out their relationship to other religions and other world powers, especially during times of turmoil and conflict.

  Several early Christian "fathers" voted not to include Revelation in the Bible because it was not useful for "setting things straight" (sorting out the Christians relationship to the world). Similarly, several of the Jewish authorities who collected and voted on the books we accept in the Hebrew Scriptures left out Daniel, Esther and others for similar reasons. Christians and Jews generally accept those votes as to what is canonical and what is apocrypha, pseudopigripha, or merely supporting material. The danger of Apocalyptic writing is that it is a genre often bred out of revenge or other narrow psychological motivations. We know of other apocalypses that were candidates for Scripture that did not make the vote.

  Personally, I believe that the primary, original intention of Revelation was to provide Christians with a kind of knowledge that fortified them and encouraged them to stand for their principles in the face of persecution and hardship amidst beastly powers around them. John drew on imagery he himself was steeped in. For the most part, his imagery was not at odds with the "revelations" attributed to Paul, Jesus and the OT, so it survived. But if it is of any use to Christians, it should be because it provides a kind of sustenance at all times through history.

  I know this idea might be radical, but Christians should "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1-6) and if the spirit of Revelation does not provide this value for them, it should be rightly rejected. If it was making me obsess over things that I wanted to "prove" applied only to one specific time or fulfillment, then it doesn't belong in my Bible, in my opinion. For another Christian, it might be truly valuable and spiritual, but I don't think a Christian should try to judge or limit its meaning to another Christian from another time or place.

  I find the apocalyptic genre very intriguing psychologically, but for me, I reject it where it has no value in building up a Christian spirit.

  Gamaliel
• 

  BluesBrother

  I must agree with Francios on this.

  If we reject the WT version of prophecy then what right have we to come up with our own? All sound ok , could be any of them (like Kissinger was supposed to be the wild beast a decade or so ago) if we hang on to these conundrums we have not yet rid ourselves of WT thinking.

  It always puzzled me that the WT was so much against the false religion yet the book that they openly took much of the interpretation from was "The Two Babylons" by REVEREND Hislop. They even supplied copies of his book to order. I think they just subtly changed the meaning from Catholicism to All Religion bar their own .

  I figured a long time ago that there was no proving any of it . At the time I accepted the WTS so I went along with their interpretation , that was all
• 

  anti-absolutist

  Hi again all. I used to be anti-absolutism but had to change to this because of computer problems.

  Interesting topic!!! As far as religion in general goes, I tend to agree with Freud, that it was created by man, in order for us to be able to handle our ever increasing level of consciousness. This includes the Bible, the book of Koran, etc.

  Like anything, there are good things and bad that have arisen from it, depending on each individual and who they choose to follow. I think that Jesus and everything he represents can be good or bad as well. I don't think that his teaching intended us to try to understand what the heck the Book of Revelation actually means. I don't think he intended us to suggest that BTG was either the USA or Islam or Christianity.

  For those of us that have saved ourselves from JWism (having lived inside a VERY high control org.), it should be easier for us to escape from this mind-limiting structure of condemning all other beliefs other than our own.

  My reality is still only my perception of it. I do however feel a lot freer by looking at all the people of the world being relatively equal.

  As for the USA, they will likely cease existing as a world power within 30-50 years, simply because they have been at the top for such a long time that they are beginning to think they "Know it All" and the "Pride is Before a Fall" saying seems to have proven true for milleniums.

  Just my humble opinions, Brad
• 

  peacefulpete

  Greven...It is a testimony to the power of cult thinking, long after the particulars of any one cults interpretation had faded the need to uncover "secret truths" lingers. The final result is sometimes worse due to the addition of isolation and added frustration of seeking a teacher who can answer all. The obvious reality that noone can fortell the future seems distasteful and depressing to someone escaping a cult that insisted it had this power or power to uniquely interpret the cryptic passages of the Bible. Yes the context itself makes clear that Babylon refers to Roman power. The setting upon seven hills or mounds is a dead give away. (Rome was called the city on seven hills) Anyone who wishes can research this easily with word searches on the web. The imagery of the book is blatent plagerism of pagan mystery cult material. I have discussed this before in more detail but felt it was unappreciated. I'm sure others have done the same.