Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

by proplog2 32 Replies latest jw friends

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  Carmel

  Christianity lost its virginal "neutrality" many hundreds of years ago prop!

  caveman
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  proplog2

  I want to address a fallacy that comes up when Bible Prophecy is discussed.

  It can be summed up in the following SINCE/THEREFORE format.

  SINCE there are so many interpretations of prophecy THEREFORE none of them are true or at best it is impossible to determine the correct interpretation.

  This is a conclusion that is born of frustration. This conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. The above fallacy is a strategy for exiting from discussions on Bible Prophecy. Prophecy is just like any other study. Rather than ridiculing a person for trying to interpret prophecy wouldn't it be better to review an interpretation critically, to reveal the interpreters error?

  Prophecies usually involve a sequence of events. If the predicted sequence doesn't come about then the interpretation is erroneous. If the method used to identify an important player can be shown to be in error this automatically voids the interpretation. On the other hand there are certain things that validate an interpretation. If you have a good fit for the identity of a couple of players and then these players interact in a way that fits the pattern of the prophecy THEN you have an interpretation that bears watching.

  In the case of Babylon The Great its primary descriptors refer to her great wealth. But it is not just wealthy. It is the wealthiest entity on the face of the earth. So wealthy that those involved in World Trade mourn her destruction because she single handedly accounted for their extraordinary prosperity. A significant number of the earths Kings benefitted from their special alliances with her. It simultaneously is described as having hegemony over all the Kings of the Earth. There is no other entity that fits this pattern than the United States. Go ahead pick one out of the history books if you can. If this referred to some previous entity then you would have to show that she was destroyed suddenly. You would then have the task of describing the Wild Beast that formed a confederacy with 10 kings who joined together to bring about this destruction. There simply is no entity since Revelation was written that fits. This certainly excludes the the scholars preferred choice of Rome as a fulfillment.

  Now consider the Wild Beast that eventually destroys Babylon the Great. It appeared as though slaughtered to death. Is it coincidental that the Soviet Union died? Does the revived Russia still have the nuclear power to destroy the USA? Does the revived Russia appear as a democratized capitalistic Lamb? Do you hear it talk a little bit like "the dragon"? Are they too desperate to lash out? Or is it a desperate beast that is likely to attack?

  Watchtower interpretations are hopelessly flawed. They say that the beast that received the sword-stroke was the Anglo American world power. When did the US & England ever EVER die?
  Why are the antagonists in Daniel the King of The North and King of The South? And then when we get to Revelation it's the Wild Beast & False Religion. They've got that wrong. The Wild Beast whose death-stroke is healed is Soviet Union/Russia. Babylon the Great is the USA/King of the South. Has the King of the South been pushing Russia? Gorbachev & Bush agreed that if the Germany's were allowed to reunite that Nato would not expand. Nato has pushed its membership right up to boarders of Russia. The USA has unilaterally withdrawn from the ABM treaty thereby voiding all previous arms agreements.

  The Watchtower mistranslates Revelation 17:11 to make it appear that the eighth king is made up of all the other kings ie the United Nations. They use the words "springs from" instead of "out of" when translating that scripture. Look at most translations and they translate "out of" either directly as "out of" or sometimes "one of". It should read "And the wild beast that was but is not it is also itself an eighth king but is "one of" the seven." Yes the eight king is "one of the seven". It is the Seventh - Russia- the head that appeared to be slaughtered but later revived. That is why it is described as the beast that was - is not - yet remains. Revived to life it acts as an eighth king. Soon the CIS consisting of Russia and 11 of its former Republics ( which never really received a Kingdom) will be transformed from a trade association into a military-political block to counter USA hegemony. Most likely this new construct will simultaneously involve Russia and Belarus uniting into one entity - leaving exactly 10 horns or republics to form a confederacy with Russia.

  This is the sequence of events as I SEE it. United States defeats Iraq. Leaders of Moslem countries speak against the USA to placate their masses but they capitulate to the Israelis and finally make peace. The USA economy takes off like a rocket. They announce "as Babylon the Great" "I sit a queen and shall never see mourning". Amidst this period of peaceful confidence a nuclear bomb explodes in New York City. Arab terrorist will be blamed. But the real culprit will be Putin who wants to level the playing field with the USA.

  The destruction of New York City will be the sign of the disgusting thing standing where it shouldn't. Jehovah's Witnesses will flee the USA/Babylon the Great/Modern Jerusalem. There are enought JW's in Mexico, South America to accomodate the witness refugees. Shortly thereafter it will be confirmed that indeed Russia destroyed New York City and not moslem terrorists. Russia will act pre-emptively to destroy the USA. Russia will then threaten nuclear destruction of any country that doesn't cooperate with Russia and it's New World Order.

  Many will become JW's at this point because they were the only survivors of the destruction of Babylon/USA. (Dan 11:34) What? There are people who survived the destruction of the USA. This will infuriate the Anti-Christ. He will demand that these people be delivered up for destruction. At that point Christ (or some such benevolent force for good (Aliens? Who knows?) takes over the planet. "And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away...And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One...and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them." Dan 7:26,27

  This is a brief overview. As you can see nothing is required of anyone until evidence is produced. Christians have to identify the "disgusting thing" that marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation before they can take flight. Of course it will help if you are a member of a world wide brotherhood.
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  jgnat

  proplog2, I am also relieved to see you are alive and well. When you dropped out of "internet land" after December 20, you had me worried. I dreaded the thought that you might have self-fulfilled your own prophecy. Next time, could you drop us a note just to say you are OK?

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/41342/573017/post.ashx#573017
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  gsx1138

  Here is my Since and Therefore. Since the Bible has never had a single prophesy come true, I can therefore deduce that any prophesy contained within its pages, either written or implied, is categorically false. In fact, Nastodamus can be considered a true prophet as some of his prophecies have actually come to pass. I chalk this up to him having excellent skill in the art of generalization.
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  proplog2

  gsx:

  In other words the past = the future. Perhaps, usually. But NOT necessarily.
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  proplog2

  jgnat:

  I am surprised anyone paid attention to my coming & going.
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  heathen

  The bible also says in Genesis40:8 that interpretations belong to God.I think the bible is the most misinterpreted book ever written . In Daniel 2:28 it says there exists a God in the heavens who is the revealer of secrets . All of this points to having a personal relationship with God in order to discern the true meaning of the ancient writings . This tells me that somewhere someone could possibly have the accurate interpretation. There are also many false prophets so there really lies the problem of who is qualified .The WT likes to think of themselves as the elijah class who is constantly bringing down the fire from heaven in the face of the baal worshippers. As far as I can see their interpretation is not any harder to accept then most and believe me I've heard some very way out explanations .
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  Brummie

  I am surprised anyone paid attention to my coming & going.

  I'm surprised anyone pays attention to your false teachings too.

  Brummie
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  Gamaliel

  proplog2,

  You said:

  So,it really isn't very complicated. ... I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:

  • Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
  • The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
  • The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
  • The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
  • The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
  • The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
  • The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
  • The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed.

  This is your fallacy: You claim that all those bullet points can be "proven." Otherwise, I'd say your theories are much better than the WTS. They make a lot more sense. Your later explanation in this same thread was very good, imo.

  No one can know that it won't someday work out as you say. But when you say something "is" an entity that is future to the original author, you betray that you have not really studied Bible prophecy. Do you admit that most Bible prophecies failed in their first fulfillment. Therefore, the chances of predicting how they might match up to a second fulfillment is even more remote. I would not trust your explanations unless you could show that you had a better background with the Bible itself. For example, did you know that many scholars claim that Ezekiel's future prophecies were mostly false? Do you know if Jeremiah prophecies had a practical purpose based on current events of his time? Do you know why most scholars believe that Daniel is a kind of forgery from the second century BC, that gets 100% of its so-called prophecies correct right up until the point where it tries real prophecy, at which point it gets nearly 100% of its prophecies wrong? Can you see why some say that Daniel was trying to "salvage" a "false prophecy" from Jeremiah? These prophecies draw on each other, and are interconnected. Of course I'm not saying you have to agree that Daniel is a forgery or pious hoax, for example. I'm just suggesting that if you can't explain why most scholars believe this, then you are not qualified in my opinion to say something can be "proven" about Revelation. When you can explain it, I would expect you to come at prophecy from a different, more humble, perspective. You will understand why it has frustrated you and thousands of others in the past, and I doubt you will ever again say this can be "proven."

  By the way, I'd be happy to discuss these prophecies here with you. That's why I wanted to let you know my perspective on them and why, to me, it doesn't make any sense to start with current events before we've exhausted the (far fewer) possibilities from their original context.

  Do you believe Revelation had an original meaning in its original context where Babylon the Great, for example, meant Rome or maybe Jerusalem? If not, why not? If not, do you think a lot of early Christian readers back then were fooled into thinking that's what it was?

  Gamaliel
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  proplog2

  Gameliel:

  Your are correct. "Proven" is a little too strong when talking about prophecy. I should have said "It can be argued... or even "It can be better argued that..." . Prophecy is at best tentative. I believe it functions as a riddle to keep believers "alert" to a signal event that triggers survival behavior - primarily flight.

  1Thessalonians 5:1 "Now as for the times and the seasons, brother, you need nothing to be written to you, For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security! then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape"

  The consequence to those who don't pay close attention is that they won't escape. Just prior to "Jehovah's Day" there will be a false sense of security. Observant believers won't be lulled by this. 1Thess 5:4 goes on to say "But you brothers, you are not in darkness, so that day should overtake you as it would thieves... (6) ...So, then let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses."

  The focus of Christs end time prophecy is on fleeing when the "disgusting thing" is seen standing where it shouldn't. Luke 21:34 "But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down...and suddenly that day be instantly upon you....(36) Keep awake then...that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur.

  It is easy for an enlightened modern mind to dismiss the Bible. Science refutes the idea of creation. God behaves badly. The chosen ones are encouraged to perform cruel ethnic cleansing. Women are treated as inferiors. Ceremonies that are akin to Magic and Voodoo are claimed to have been given by God. But Christ's teachings are a major step forward. And this was a step that was anticipated by the "Old Testament". True Christians treat each other as "brothers". Nationality is removed as a barier to fellowship. This idea of brotherhood has to be embedded in the collective unconscious of the whole planet if mankind is going to surive. It will be evident when the cataclysm is over that the world-wide brotherhood of JW's facilitated their survival.

  Prophecy finally succeeds if it keeps the faithful awake and they survive.